Who make the best engines and which engine overall would you single out as the most amazing ever built and why?
Who makes the best engines
- Thread starter obi_waynne
- Start date
pgarner
TC ModFather
Rolls Royce - merlin engine and the reason supercharged 27ltrs listn to one going full whack.
and yes it has been put in a car before so can count- dont think the 2000+ bhp engines were used however
and yes it has been put in a car before so can count- dont think the 2000+ bhp engines were used however
HDi fun
TC ModFather
RR RB211 - turbofan
MasterAuron
Very Senior Member
I think for everyday engines as a sweeping generalisation Honda make the best engines and engine set-ups in their B16, 18 and K20 range. Bullet-proof, great performance and still good economy.
Nissan do some brilliant engines. The SR20DE, SR20DET, RB25 and so on. And most of these engines are good for tuning and are also bullit proof. Extremely realiable.
HDi fun
TC ModFather
Agree completely. Nissan's SR20 series is an all alloy DOHC 16 valve effort and has been in production for years. As such a high standard of excellence has been achieved. All SR20 units are extremely durable and can be found in many different levels of tune.
TN69 mentioned the SR20DET which features in the 200SX.
Lesser know, and not an offical UK engine is the SR20ZE. This has no turbo but is good for 200bhp in standard tune thanks to variable valve timing and an almost Honda VTEC line 7900rpm red line.
Probably the sweetest engines of all to drive are in line 6 cylinder ones. Not as powerful as a similar sized revvy twin cam four but so sublimely, creamily, smooth. BMW does these best, in my opinion.
Notice that I've not mentioned a diesel yet!
TN69 mentioned the SR20DET which features in the 200SX.
Lesser know, and not an offical UK engine is the SR20ZE. This has no turbo but is good for 200bhp in standard tune thanks to variable valve timing and an almost Honda VTEC line 7900rpm red line.
Probably the sweetest engines of all to drive are in line 6 cylinder ones. Not as powerful as a similar sized revvy twin cam four but so sublimely, creamily, smooth. BMW does these best, in my opinion.
Notice that I've not mentioned a diesel yet!
well anything jap is a good engine
but a toyota diesel engine is what amazes me
the taxi or cabs over here are all toyotas, with some serious mileage on them,
will they ever die??. no, ive saw a 97 toyota corrola with 560,000 miles on it
but a toyota diesel engine is what amazes me
the taxi or cabs over here are all toyotas, with some serious mileage on them,
will they ever die??. no, ive saw a 97 toyota corrola with 560,000 miles on it
well id go for vauxhall and ford
vauxhall for the c20xe (redtop) and the c20let (redtop turbo) i am picking these engines for the simple fact of if maintained properly they will last longer than the car they produce good power as standard and are very tunable and have been transplanted into many fast road cars, drag strip cars, hill climbing cars and track day cars
exactly the same reasons for the ford ybt cosworth engine
vauxhall for the c20xe (redtop) and the c20let (redtop turbo) i am picking these engines for the simple fact of if maintained properly they will last longer than the car they produce good power as standard and are very tunable and have been transplanted into many fast road cars, drag strip cars, hill climbing cars and track day cars
exactly the same reasons for the ford ybt cosworth engine
yes the ford cosworth is a very good engine also,
they dont make them like they use to
probably a good time to mention
maybe its all the old sporty engines that are good
Agreed. BMW's 6 cylinder engine are sweet. I especially like the 2.5.
HDi fun
TC ModFather
That's fair. The 2.0 is a bit spineless, especially in 12 valve form. Later a 520i was actually a 2.2 24 valve but 522i doesn't have the same cachet.
BMW scrapped the inline 6 cylinder model for 3.0 and 3.5 litre engines and replaced with V8s. Probably in the interests of shortening the crankshaft and thus allowing higher revs without torsional stresses getting in the way.
Jaguars V12 5.3 litre XJS motor was a gem to listen to but hideously thirsty and prone to thermal problems with head warping and distortion common. Later the XJS HE aws launched, using port by port injection instead of a cluster of carbs.
HE stood for High Efficiency. As if 5.3 is efficient? But they delivered a solid 300bhp and revved in a way that you'd never imagine such a large engine would.
I don't think Jaguar's engines are the best overall. Once Ford became involved in 1996 the quality issues were resolved and the cars became truly worthy. Sadly, many of us lamented the loss of the 'real' Jaguar.
If I were to nominate a diesel unit (and I'm relunctant to do so as so much of today's diesel engine technology is untested in the long term) then I think BMW's stupendously quick 3.0 twin turbo straight six (335d and 535d) would get the vote for it's sheer muscle and tunability with nothing more than a remap seeing over 350bhp made available.
BMW scrapped the inline 6 cylinder model for 3.0 and 3.5 litre engines and replaced with V8s. Probably in the interests of shortening the crankshaft and thus allowing higher revs without torsional stresses getting in the way.
Jaguars V12 5.3 litre XJS motor was a gem to listen to but hideously thirsty and prone to thermal problems with head warping and distortion common. Later the XJS HE aws launched, using port by port injection instead of a cluster of carbs.
HE stood for High Efficiency. As if 5.3 is efficient? But they delivered a solid 300bhp and revved in a way that you'd never imagine such a large engine would.
I don't think Jaguar's engines are the best overall. Once Ford became involved in 1996 the quality issues were resolved and the cars became truly worthy. Sadly, many of us lamented the loss of the 'real' Jaguar.
If I were to nominate a diesel unit (and I'm relunctant to do so as so much of today's diesel engine technology is untested in the long term) then I think BMW's stupendously quick 3.0 twin turbo straight six (335d and 535d) would get the vote for it's sheer muscle and tunability with nothing more than a remap seeing over 350bhp made available.
There is a new Jag Diesel engine in the XF that is worth mention here. The supercharger is mounted between the V.
Diesel wise, BMW and Audi both have pretty stonking offerings but I think the BMW has it especially when remapped.
Diesel wise, BMW and Audi both have pretty stonking offerings but I think the BMW has it especially when remapped.
RedlineX2
Tuner
Ladas are pretty amazin dont you think?
Joking aside, Honda's doing a good job with VTEC and stuff. S2000 in particular seems to have very good BHP/CC
Joking aside, Honda's doing a good job with VTEC and stuff. S2000 in particular seems to have very good BHP/CC
HDi fun
TC ModFather
BMW's 535d is the same 3.0 block as used in the 530d. These can produce incredible power and torque. A remapped 535d or 335d has got to be one of the most desirable drives available from a four or five door car.
It took BMW a while to make a 530i petrol that could compete on equal terms with the d derivatives.
It took BMW a while to make a 530i petrol that could compete on equal terms with the d derivatives.
HDi fun
TC ModFather
Waynne, I think the supercharged engine is the 5.0 petrol V8. The 3.0 diesels still use the unusual route of parallel yet sequential turbocharging.
I wasn't aware of the 3.0 D S and it does appear impressive on paper with 275bhp. I might try and blag a drive from a dealer and get a feel for it.
I think you will be very impressed with it. There are some very clever things going on in those engines. Apparently a standard petrol XF with a remap will be as fast as a Jaguar XJ220! That is progress for you.
Prince
Torque King
Honda!!! You can tune a Honda engine rather nicely and keep all the reliability it had in the first place. It will very rarely die as well. Not only that... Honda were the first manufacturer to create a 100 bhp to every litre engine (B16A - 1.6 - 160 bhp).
pgarner
TC ModFather
Wrong prince, they were the 1st to produce a road going NASP engine with 100 bhp/ltr
HDi fun
TC ModFather
I like the way you describe the petrol XF as 'standard'.
Five litre supercharged V8 anyone. Standard?
If I was in the market for an XF even I would walk away from the diesels in favour of a 500bhp petrol. Who wouldn't?
Standard (Definition, you can walk into a showroom and buy one like that!))
Hey in 10 years time these things will be going for a few thousand! They will be a bargain then.
)) Hey in 10 years time these things will be going for a few thousand! They will be a bargain then.
IMO,
Honda and BMW make just about the best (relative term) car production engines on the planet.
BMW have probably won the most awards for some of their engines in the annual International Engine Awards.
They also seem to be able to consistently make engines that produce more torque per litre than any other manufacturer (naturally aspirated).
It was Honda (HRC) technology that put the reliability into the Ferrari F1 engine (they bought and employed some of the HRC staff when Honda pulled out of F1 in about '92 or '93).
Yamaha though, do a serious amount of engine research that a lot of the public don't get to hear about. They designed the classic Toyota 2-litre twin cam that came out some 20 years ago initially as at 1600cc then later at 2-litres. They also designed and developed the Ford Zetec range of engines.
They were the first with 5-valve heads and sold the technology to Audi and Ferrari (the first 3.5 Litre F1 V12 engines for the 1989 season used 5-valve heads.
There's much more but I am relying on memory only atm).
Most performance Japanese engines are built using forged pistons which goes a long way towards making them so durable. Along with the fact that they, like the Germans understand quality control and high standards of manufacture better than just about any other country.
The RR Merlin was and still is a legend of an engine. Conceived and designed in the 1930's using all-alloy construction, overhead camshafts operating 4-valves per cylinder, RR-65 forged alloy pistons (this material is still in use today).
It had "only" 1650cid or 27,038cc (it was one of the smallest capacity engines used to power fighters or bombers in any of the Allied or Axis countries).
It went from an initial 1,030hp in the first production Merlins (Merlin III) to (I am quoting this from a book entitled The Merlin In Perspective -by Alec Harvey-Bailey, available from the Rolls-Royce Heritage Library) ..an amazing 2,200hp for the Merlin 60 series (150 octane fuel).
This same engine type known as the RM17SM at Rolls-Royce
had a maximum Flight Clearance Tested Power of 2,340hp
and completed a Maximum Endurance Test Power rating of 2,640hp (3,000rpm +36lbs boost and Water/Methanol Injection).
Reno Racers still use these engines (mostly in P-51 Mustangs) and they are getting close to 4000hp out of them. Which is enough to keep the monster radial engines other aircraft use, usually of 3350cid or 4360cid in check.
It's also enough to top more than 500mph at low level in specially modified Mustangs such as the famous "Dago Red" and "Strega."
For those interested in what makes a racing Merlin nowadays, here are two very interesting links:-
http://www.supercoolprops.com/articles/gwhitegearheads.php
http://www.supercoolprops.com/articles/gwhite_reno.php
Honda and BMW make just about the best (relative term) car production engines on the planet.
BMW have probably won the most awards for some of their engines in the annual International Engine Awards.
They also seem to be able to consistently make engines that produce more torque per litre than any other manufacturer (naturally aspirated).
It was Honda (HRC) technology that put the reliability into the Ferrari F1 engine (they bought and employed some of the HRC staff when Honda pulled out of F1 in about '92 or '93).
Yamaha though, do a serious amount of engine research that a lot of the public don't get to hear about. They designed the classic Toyota 2-litre twin cam that came out some 20 years ago initially as at 1600cc then later at 2-litres. They also designed and developed the Ford Zetec range of engines.
They were the first with 5-valve heads and sold the technology to Audi and Ferrari (the first 3.5 Litre F1 V12 engines for the 1989 season used 5-valve heads.
There's much more but I am relying on memory only atm).
Most performance Japanese engines are built using forged pistons which goes a long way towards making them so durable. Along with the fact that they, like the Germans understand quality control and high standards of manufacture better than just about any other country.
The RR Merlin was and still is a legend of an engine. Conceived and designed in the 1930's using all-alloy construction, overhead camshafts operating 4-valves per cylinder, RR-65 forged alloy pistons (this material is still in use today).
It had "only" 1650cid or 27,038cc (it was one of the smallest capacity engines used to power fighters or bombers in any of the Allied or Axis countries).
It went from an initial 1,030hp in the first production Merlins (Merlin III) to (I am quoting this from a book entitled The Merlin In Perspective -by Alec Harvey-Bailey, available from the Rolls-Royce Heritage Library) ..an amazing 2,200hp for the Merlin 60 series (150 octane fuel).
This same engine type known as the RM17SM at Rolls-Royce
had a maximum Flight Clearance Tested Power of 2,340hp
and completed a Maximum Endurance Test Power rating of 2,640hp (3,000rpm +36lbs boost and Water/Methanol Injection).
Reno Racers still use these engines (mostly in P-51 Mustangs) and they are getting close to 4000hp out of them. Which is enough to keep the monster radial engines other aircraft use, usually of 3350cid or 4360cid in check.
It's also enough to top more than 500mph at low level in specially modified Mustangs such as the famous "Dago Red" and "Strega."
For those interested in what makes a racing Merlin nowadays, here are two very interesting links:-
http://www.supercoolprops.com/articles/gwhitegearheads.php
http://www.supercoolprops.com/articles/gwhite_reno.php
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marti5
Road Burner
Lexus 4.0 ltr V8 ......I need say no more.
HDi fun
TC ModFather
For the power crazed the 4.3 litre engine from Lexus. I'm still inclined to think that a straight six is a purer concept mechanically but a Lexus LS430 is ridiculously quiet. It makes an S Class or Bentley seem noisy and uncouth.
Clarkson is noted to have described a drive in an LS430 as giving an impression of what it might be like to be dead. He also said that you could hear your own hair growing.
I've driven a GS430 (03 model, not the latest one) and that is similarly hushed.
Clarkson is noted to have described a drive in an LS430 as giving an impression of what it might be like to be dead. He also said that you could hear your own hair growing.
I've driven a GS430 (03 model, not the latest one) and that is similarly hushed.
MustangMan
Torque Junkie
My favorite engine: LS series Chevy V8s. 2nd favorite engine: Evo's 4G53.
SID447's answer sums it up, I think. There is no single answer to this question. What is your definition of 'best'. Best for what? Looks?, reliability?, max power?, bhp/cc?, size?, economy?, emissions?, weight?, petrol or diesel?, etc, etc, etc. But even then, using just one of these criteria will result in sub-divisions - 1000cc, 1500cc, 2l, 3l, V4, V6, etc.
Also, most of us have very limited experience of the vast range of power plants available, so we can only make very subjective decisions using our limited, and usually biased, knowledge.
Basically, there is no one answer to this question, only many good arguments
Also, most of us have very limited experience of the vast range of power plants available, so we can only make very subjective decisions using our limited, and usually biased, knowledge.
Basically, there is no one answer to this question, only many good arguments
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HDi fun
TC ModFather
SID447's answer sums it up, I think. There is no single answer to this question. What is your definition of 'best'. Best for what? Looks?, reliability?, max power?, bhp/cc?, size?, economy?, emissions?, weight?, petrol or diesel?, etc, etc, etc. But even then, using just one of these criteria will result in sub-divisions - 1000cc, 1500cc, 2l, 3l, V4, V6, etc.
Basically, there is no one answer to this question, only many arguments
Well said. Put that to MustangMan
That should give him something to consider and about which to subsequently prevaricate.
MustangMan
Torque Junkie
Well said. Put that to MustangMan
That should give him something to consider and about which to subsequently prevaricate.
:sad2: Best- a word that is strictly from opinion. As long as people have different opinions, there will be arguments about what is "best".
And long may that continue
We are going to LA in a couple of weeks and was going to suggest that we hook up for a beer, but you couldn't live much further away!
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Turboshaft
Wrench Pro
well , it's strange no one mentioned the judd engines. lots of power with medium displacement and they are also very light compared to engines with the same size.
also , the hayabusa engine is a masterpiece and what happens when you turbocharge one of those is pure awesomeness
oh, and the merlin engine... it was so powerful compared to the rival bf109 engine even if the latter was fuel injected.
also , the hayabusa engine is a masterpiece and what happens when you turbocharge one of those is pure awesomeness
oh, and the merlin engine... it was so powerful compared to the rival bf109 engine even if the latter was fuel injected.
Loz
Torque King
For me the 'Most amazing' engine(s) are those found in Top Fuel Dragsters running on Nitromethane, these monsters are an assault on all the senses.
The force you feel when one launches past you off the line is just incredible & should be experienced by everyone at least once!
Everything about these engines is just huge, here's some stats...
One Top Fuel dragster 500 cubic inch Hemi engine makes more horsepower than the first 4 rows at the Daytona 500.
Under full throttle, a dragster engine consumes 1½ gallons of nitromethane per second;
a fully loaded 747consumes jet fuel at the same rate with 25% less energy being produced.
A stock Dodge Hemi V8 engine cannot produce enough power
to drive the dragster supercharger.
With 3000 CFM of air being rammed in by the supercharger on overdrive, the fuel
mixture is compressed into a near-solid form before ignition. Cylinders run on the verge
of hydraulic lock at full throttle.
At the stoichiometric 1.7:1 air/fuel mixture for nitromethane the flame front temperature measures 7050 degrees F.
Nitromethane burns yellow. The spectacular white flame seen above the stacks at night is raw burning hydrogen, dissociated from atmospheric water vapor by the
searing exhaust gases.
Dual magnetos supply 44 amps to each spark plug. This is
the output of an arc welder in each cylinder.
Spark plug electrodes are totally consumed during a pass. After 1/2 way, the engine is dieseling from compression plus the glow of exhaust valves at 1400 degrees F.
The engine can only be shut down by cutting the fuel flow.
If spark momentarily fails early in the run, unburned nitro builds up in the affected cylinders and then explodes with sufficient force to blow cylinder heads off the block
in pieces or split the block in half.
In order to exceed 300 mph in 4.5 seconds dragsters must accelerate at an average of over 4G's. In order to reach 200 mph well before half-track, the launch acceleration
approaches 8G's. * Dragsters reach over 300 miles per hour before you have completed reading this sentence.
Top Fuel Engines turn approximately 540 revolutions from
light to light!
Including the burnout the engine must only survive 900
revolutions under load.
The redline is actually quite high at 9500 rpm.
The Bottom Line; Assuming all the equipment is paid off, the crew worked for free, and for once NOTHING BLOWS UP, each run costs an estimated US $1,000.00 per second.
The current Top Fuel dragster elapsed time record is 4.441 seconds for the quarter mile (10/05/03, Tony Schumacher). The top speed record is 333.25 mph (533 km/h) as measured
over the last 66' of the run (11/09/03 Doug Kalitta).
Putting all of this into perspective: You are driving the average $140,000 Lingenfelter "twin-turbo" powered Corvette Z06. Over a mile up the road, a Top Fuel dragster is staged
and ready to launch down a quarter mile strip as you pass.
You have the advantage of a flying start. You run the 'Vette hard up through the gears and blast across the starting line and past the dragster at an honest 200 mph.
The 'tree' goes green for both of you at that moment.
The dragster launches and starts after you. You keep your foot down hard, but you hear an incredibly brutal whine that sears your eardrums and within 3 seconds the dragster
catches and passes you. He beats you to the finish line, a quarter mile away from where you just passed him.
Think about it; from a standing start, the dragster had spotted you 200 mph and not only caught, but nearly blasted you off the road when he passed you within a mere 1320 foot
long race! course. That, folks, is acceleration.
Sourced from... http://www.nitrofuelers.com/articles.htm
I've even got a piston & a valve spring from one of these on my desk!
The force you feel when one launches past you off the line is just incredible & should be experienced by everyone at least once!
Everything about these engines is just huge, here's some stats...
One Top Fuel dragster 500 cubic inch Hemi engine makes more horsepower than the first 4 rows at the Daytona 500.
Under full throttle, a dragster engine consumes 1½ gallons of nitromethane per second;
a fully loaded 747consumes jet fuel at the same rate with 25% less energy being produced.
A stock Dodge Hemi V8 engine cannot produce enough power
to drive the dragster supercharger.
With 3000 CFM of air being rammed in by the supercharger on overdrive, the fuel
mixture is compressed into a near-solid form before ignition. Cylinders run on the verge
of hydraulic lock at full throttle.
At the stoichiometric 1.7:1 air/fuel mixture for nitromethane the flame front temperature measures 7050 degrees F.
Nitromethane burns yellow. The spectacular white flame seen above the stacks at night is raw burning hydrogen, dissociated from atmospheric water vapor by the
searing exhaust gases.
Dual magnetos supply 44 amps to each spark plug. This is
the output of an arc welder in each cylinder.
Spark plug electrodes are totally consumed during a pass. After 1/2 way, the engine is dieseling from compression plus the glow of exhaust valves at 1400 degrees F.
The engine can only be shut down by cutting the fuel flow.
If spark momentarily fails early in the run, unburned nitro builds up in the affected cylinders and then explodes with sufficient force to blow cylinder heads off the block
in pieces or split the block in half.
In order to exceed 300 mph in 4.5 seconds dragsters must accelerate at an average of over 4G's. In order to reach 200 mph well before half-track, the launch acceleration
approaches 8G's. * Dragsters reach over 300 miles per hour before you have completed reading this sentence.
Top Fuel Engines turn approximately 540 revolutions from
light to light!
Including the burnout the engine must only survive 900
revolutions under load.
The redline is actually quite high at 9500 rpm.
The Bottom Line; Assuming all the equipment is paid off, the crew worked for free, and for once NOTHING BLOWS UP, each run costs an estimated US $1,000.00 per second.
The current Top Fuel dragster elapsed time record is 4.441 seconds for the quarter mile (10/05/03, Tony Schumacher). The top speed record is 333.25 mph (533 km/h) as measured
over the last 66' of the run (11/09/03 Doug Kalitta).
Putting all of this into perspective: You are driving the average $140,000 Lingenfelter "twin-turbo" powered Corvette Z06. Over a mile up the road, a Top Fuel dragster is staged
and ready to launch down a quarter mile strip as you pass.
You have the advantage of a flying start. You run the 'Vette hard up through the gears and blast across the starting line and past the dragster at an honest 200 mph.
The 'tree' goes green for both of you at that moment.
The dragster launches and starts after you. You keep your foot down hard, but you hear an incredibly brutal whine that sears your eardrums and within 3 seconds the dragster
catches and passes you. He beats you to the finish line, a quarter mile away from where you just passed him.
Think about it; from a standing start, the dragster had spotted you 200 mph and not only caught, but nearly blasted you off the road when he passed you within a mere 1320 foot
long race! course. That, folks, is acceleration.
Sourced from... http://www.nitrofuelers.com/articles.htm
I've even got a piston & a valve spring from one of these on my desk!
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dpsubaru
The Torque Meister
truly amazing!
Ah, how refreshing to find someone who knows something plane names
The 109's engine was over 33litres compared to the Merlin's 27. Also, the 109 engine was fuel injected so could pull negative Gs whereas the Spitfire & Hurricane couldn't due to having carbs.
Numpty = ME 109 - Correct BF109 (although later on in the war they became ME but were still referred to - even by the Germans - as BF)
More common mistakes:
Big Ben - It's St Stephen's Tower. Big Ben is the main bell in the tower.
Spoiler when they mean wing
Shock when they mean damper (unless you are American)
Any more common mistakes you can think of (ignoring film misquotes)? I'll start a new thread in order not to hijack this one
pgarner
TC ModFather
i mentioned it away up at the top
More common mistakes:
Big Ben - It's St Stephen's Tower. Big Ben is the main bell in the tower.
Spoiler when they mean wing
Shock when they mean damper (unless you are American)
Any more common mistakes you can think of (ignoring film misquotes)? I'll start a new thread in order not to hijack this one
did wonder where your other thread came from
indiaman
Track Warrior
The best present day car engine IMO, is the 2700cc 6cyl 280 -1600 HP engine as fitted on the Nissan Skyline-has the world record at about 350Kmph on the German autobahn(official) and 380Kmph(unofficial)
The RR Merlin was excellent -for it's day-, but the RR Griffon-a derivative and a much more powerful version of the Merlin, was more reliable, also it had internal oilways instead of the exposed oil pipes on the Merlin, that gave a lot of maintenance headaches.
The RR Merlin was excellent -for it's day-, but the RR Griffon-a derivative and a much more powerful version of the Merlin, was more reliable, also it had internal oilways instead of the exposed oil pipes on the Merlin, that gave a lot of maintenance headaches.
HDi fun
TC ModFather
Here's the really big stuff:
Wartsila-Sulzer RTA96-C
http://people.bath.ac.uk/ccsshb/12cyl/
This has been mentioned on Torquecars a couple of years back.
Wartsila-Sulzer RTA96-C
http://people.bath.ac.uk/ccsshb/12cyl/
This has been mentioned on Torquecars a couple of years back.
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