What's the appeal of diesel?

WLBjork said:
I think you'll find that it was the Ju86 bombers that used the Jumo 205/207 Diesel engines.

Ju88s used the Jumo 211, which ran on 87 octane petrol.

Even then it's worth considering that the original Jumo 205s were inadequate to the task, the turbo-charged Jumo 207 being the engine adopted for the high altitude variant.
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You are absolutely right,sorry about the goof up, it was the JU86.
The later version -the Jumo 207 B supercharged developed 1000hp (I think used on the JU86K), the JU88 as you rightly pointed out used the Jumo 211A 1200hp petrol engine
 
clio197MJB said:
the whole premice of diesel escapes me....sure the fuel economy is better and the 'mid-range pull' is a little sharper but when all is said and done i defy anyone (given the choice) would rather run a diesel than a petrol. its the pantomime of a petrol engine that excites us, tipping 7500rpm brings a smile, not smashing into the rev-limiter at a pedestrian 5000rpm. dont get me wrong, if i wore a wig and had a penchant for beige then diesel would be a tempting thing indeed however petrol will always have my vote for its sheer fun!!
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Legend! At least there are a few of us true petrol-heads left with some sense eh. 535D? I suggest you try driving a UK Supra TT. Seeeeee ya!
 
i have yet to find a diesel engine that sounds as good as a petrol, though i've also to find a petrol engine that gives as good fuel economy as a diesel even under 'aggressive' driving
 
Have read all the posts, a lot of diesel haters,and a lot of drivers who are 100% petrol only. Most equate RPMs above 7000 to be essential for exhilarating performance, this is a gross fallacy. I have a friend here who has a Mercedes W210(1999 model) E 300 Turbo diesel 3 litre, I fitted 2 garrett turbos instead of the original single turbo, and replaced the "fly by wire" fuel inj pump with one taken from the earlier 606 engine with mechanical PES inline injection pump, fitted the pump with some bigger nozzles. This car with no other work done on it, will show a clean pair of heels to any petrol car, and has tremendous acceleration to boot, the point is: You do not have to rev the engine like in a petrol job to get real performance. diesels are here to stay, and it won't be long when they are refined enough to convert the most die hard petrolhead. -my two bits worth-
 
You don't have to thrash the life of a Petrol Turbo. They have plenty of torque so they don't need to be thrashed.
It's NASP petrols that need to be thrashed to get any performance. But think about it what would you have to do to get a NASP diesel moving anywhere?
Tow it maybe.
 
turbonutter69 said:
You don't have to thrash the life of a Petrol Turbo. They have plenty of torque so they don't need to be thrashed.
It's NASP petrols that need to be thrashed to get any performance. But think about it what would you have to do to get a NASP diesel moving anywhere?
Tow it maybe.
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I beg to differ, A good modern normally aspirated petrol engine is no sluggard,why, even a 1950's Jaguar XK engine runs to more than 200 BHP, and the torque at low RPM's is something to be experienced . I still own a Jaguar 3.8 S type 1965 model, and it will pull cleanly from 700 RPM in Top gear right up to its 6000 RPM redline without missing a beat.
And if you imagine that all normally aspirated Diesels are slow, please drive a 1980's Nissan with a 6 cyl RD 28 engine, or a Mercedes E300D, you'll be pleasantly surprised!
 
Just wanted to add my 2 bits. For me the appeal of modern turbo diesel is its "jack of all trades" characteristic when it comes to performance. It might not be able to beat a similarly sized turbo petrol but it can give it a run for it's money so to speak. Plus you have the added benefit of fuel economy which the said turbo petrol car won't be able to give you. For me having good power and good fuel economy in one car is the clincher.
 
be989 said:
Just wanted to add my 2 bits. For me the appeal of modern turbo diesel is its "jack of all trades" characteristic when it comes to performance. It might not be able to beat a similarly sized turbo petrol but it can give it a run for it's money so to speak. Plus you have the added benefit of fuel economy which the said turbo petrol car won't be able to give you. For me having good power and good fuel economy in one car is the clincher.
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To a point. But diesel engines (especially the modern high performance ones) will generally cost more to service and maintain than a similarly quick petrol car. There's still some room for improvement in that department.
 
Indeed they do cost a lot to maintain,

But I guess though to a point this is manufactures being over zealous with the servicing schedule, but diesel cars can have long service intervals as well....

for example, my friends golf 2.0tdi has to be serviced every 20,000 miles
that's positively insane, I wouldn't entertain leaving any car that long without a service
 
jarrus said:
Indeed they do cost a lot to maintain,

But I guess though to a point this is manufactures being over zealous with the servicing schedule, but diesel cars can have long service intervals as well....

for example, my friends golf 2.0tdi has to be serviced every 20,000 miles
that's positively insane, I wouldn't entertain leaving any car that long without a service
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Some go to 30,000 miles. But the point you are missing is that it's not a problem for the first owner because it's all under warranty. It's unlikely to be a problem during that period anyway.

BUT, buy that Golf 4 years old and you're inheriting all the problems that the early life infrequent servicing can bring about.

My point is not about the manufacturer schedules, it's about the true cost of ownership over ten years let's say. That's why I've reverted to petrol for now.
 
Indeed,

I have seen plenty of turbo diesels out pull a turbo petrol in the mid range (beat it) and the diesel had less HP,

The thing is though that diesels when wrung out will only achieve slightly better mpg figure than there petrol counter parts, it's only when driving like a normal person you get any real benefit in economy,

for example, I drove from Telford (Trench) to Shrewsbury town centre to pick up a someone as a favour, he put £10 of diesel in my car (was about 10 litres worth then) and I ragged the nuts off my car there and back and used all of it....

which works out at about 19 mpg,

how dire is that? but then again I usually get around 42 mpg and that's a mix of spirited and normal driving, and that would be hard for any turbo petrol to match even when driven carefully

and diesels can be made to sound as good as petrols
 
Hard to know. I used to average about 36mpg in the 406 with a mixture of town and main road. But bear in mind I live in a rural area and don't have to commute at peak times. So, not outstanding really.

Last week I had to take a M'way trip up to Dudley (W. Mids). It's about 80 miles each way.

And in the 528i I managed 38.5mpg on that round trip. Driving sensibly and I set an upper limit of 85mph. So not ridiculously slow either. I can't complain about that at all.

But I could have managed that with ease in a 535d even driving much more firmly.
 
my step dad has a fabia vrs diesel! he put a hybrid turbo on it n all the trimmings! got it 220bhp 400 lb/ft last week at the street racing near mine he raced a bmw m3 petrol and a focus rs im not sure on the power of them but he smoked em haha fink im only into diesels because of torque and mpg and there prity much industructable! rekon they both have good points and bad points tho
 
One thing they aren't is indestructible. Old school ones, yes, to a point.

The modern ones still have a lot to prove in term reliability and long term running costs.

Like you, I do also like the outrageous torque on offer.
 
clio197MJB said:
the whole premice of diesel escapes me....sure the fuel economy is better and the 'mid-range pull' is a little sharper but when all is said and done i defy anyone (given the choice) would rather run a diesel than a petrol. its the pantomime of a petrol engine that excites us, tipping 7500rpm brings a smile, not smashing into the rev-limiter at a pedestrian 5000rpm. dont get me wrong, if i wore a wig and had a penchant for beige then diesel would be a tempting thing indeed however petrol will always have my vote for its sheer fun!!
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That's a very valid point. But there is also some pantomime to be had for those of us who like the thrill of overburdening the traction control system in third gear in the dry. It is torque, after all, which makes a car accelerate so whether it's delivered at 2000rpm or 6000rpm really doesn't make that much difference.

The 5000rpm rev limit (lower is many cases, alhough a few go pointlessly higher) is not a problem with automatic transmission, which is my preferred means of gear ratio selection anyway. Manual gearboxes are too much for me :-)
 
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jarrus said:
Correct gear ratio's and correct turbo selection should make up for the lack of rev's any day
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They are certainly interchangeable. As we've said before it's roadwheel torque which accelerates the car.

So a petrol engine with less flywheel torque can take advantage of its higher revving nature by using lower gears.

All that gear ratios do is to exchange revs for torque. The actual power in the system is exactly the same either side of the box.

But then diesels will pull hard from 1500rpm or lower in some cases so can therefore pull longer gears.

It's more down to preferred driving style now more than anything else.

There's no hard and fast rules
 
The appeal of diesel these days is that you don't need an enormous V8 petrol to have some power. Yeah, the V8 might be more fun,more satisfying, but if you can't afford 20mpg or less or the 900 quid a year car tax or the shafting off the chancellor if it's a company car then a modern diesel married to a good autobox makes sense.
 
Yugguy said:
The appeal of diesel these days is that you don't need an enormous V8 petrol to have some power. Yeah, the V8 might be more fun,more satisfying, but if you can't afford 20mpg or less or the 900 quid a year car tax or the shafting off the chancellor if it's a company car then a modern diesel married to a good autobox makes sense.
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sounds good to me !!!!!:lol:
 
Yugguy said:
The appeal of diesel these days is that you don't need an enormous V8 petrol to have some power. Yeah, the V8 might be more fun,more satisfying, but if you can't afford 20mpg or less or the 900 quid a year car tax or the shafting off the chancellor if it's a company car then a modern diesel married to a good autobox makes sense.
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What you say is pretty accurate. With over 300lbft on offer from below 2000rpm with a diesel engine you do get that urgent feel that comes from a 4 litre plus V8 petrol engine.

Of course, you won't get the 300+bhp at the top end because it won't rev to 6500+rpm but in general driving up to 3500-4000rpm the in gear muscle is much the same.
 
jarrus said:
Indeed, agreed that has to be the appeal for me as well
but it has to be a manuel though ;)
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I'll always take a decent automatic over any manual. Diesel engines for years didn't really cut it with automatic transmission simply because they lacked (and still do lack) the ability to rev much past 4000rpm.

Many go higher now (my 406 red-lined at 5300 and the limiter only invaded at 5500) but they don't really do much in performance terms at those engine speeds.

The advent of automatics with 5, 6 or more true gear ratios during the last ten years or so has made the automatic diesel option a likeable choice.
 
The limiting factor on that engine was the fact it had a tiny turbo,

it had a gt15 which really is a little small if you rev past 4k, even on my engine a gt15 is too small past 4k rpm (mine has the KKK equalivilant a K14)

I reckon if I did undertake a 2.2 hdi 306 a gt22 would make it produce power up the top quite easy (useable power that is)
 
Some diesels can sound very nice indeed,

I've posted some video link somewhere in the thread I think,
But the other day on the way to Alton Towers my friend was giving his Alfa 156 1.9 8v jtd the beans and it sounded rather nice, especially over 3k rpm was almost a petrol sound but still had the nice rough edged diesel sound in there, it was actually a nice mix...
 
just looked it up, was a GT1549P, the t3 is a very old turbo charger by today standards and even then, the old t series turbos weren't variable vane with the exception of the VNT25 which was made for Dodge and was also used in the 405 T16 really nice engine that....

DI diesel engines need far less air to produce a good amount of power/torque

They don't list a 49 compressor on the garrett website on the gt15 frame,

but from what I can gather it was good for up to 200 hp (going on the bases of the 48 compressor)
 
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diesels are now being made to actually look nice, im not a diesel person at all but i give it to them they do save your money when travelling.
 
jarrus said:
just looked it up, was a GT1549P, the t3 is a very old turbo charger by today standards and even then, the old t series turbos weren't variable vane with the exception of the VNT25 which was made for Dodge and was also used in the 405 T16 really nice engine that....

DI diesel engines need far less air to produce a good amount of power/torque

They don't list a 49 compressor on the garrett website on the gt15 frame,

but from what I can gather it was good for up to 200 hp (going on the bases of the 48 compressor)
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It is indeed a very old unit.

DI engines don't so much need less air as such, they just are better able to make us of huge amounts of the stuff
 
Indeed,

for example, my car uses a similar turbo charger to what the 2.2 was running,

about the most my engine can muster out of it is about 170 hp tops, the hdi should be able to get 200 hp from it,

Turbodynamics make a hybrid unit for the 1.9 td using a t2 turbine hosing and a t25 compressor wheel and hosing (the 60 mm housing) and the most i've seen from that is about 213 hp and from the size of the housing and the fact that he was running about 35 psi that just outrageous lengths to go to for such a little gain

I've finially come to realise that the xud as great as they are, are useless for making big power (well 213 hp isn't bad) but that was with 245 lbft torque which is laughable for a diesel with that kind of power so I've abandoned the idea of making a big power xud as I can see there will be many problems

I'm either going to buy a Renault sport Megane 175 dci or an Vauxhall Astra SRI 1.9cdti sport hatch 150, or drop a 2.2 hdi into a 306(I would quite like to find a 3 door shell maybe), or i've found a low mileage black GTI6 on the trader which I've inquired about, it's not 100% standard but nothing that can't be easily undone
 
you can have bags of torque from a petrol.

I get 270lbs-ft at the wheels (so probs over 300lb-ft at the crank) at 2500rpm in mine, and very little lag.

Big shove comes in from 2000 and runs cleanly pulling right through to 6500.
 
metalonmetal said:
you can have bags of torque from a petrol.

I get 270lbs-ft at the wheels (so probs over 300lb-ft at the crank) at 2500rpm in mine, and very little lag.

Big shove comes in from 2000 and runs cleanly pulling right through to 6500.
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Oh yeah, there are not hard and fast rules. With diesel you'd probably be well
under way from 1300rpm but obviously the show's over by 5000 at the latest.

270lbft is not remarkable compared to the latest high performance diesels from BMW and Mercedes Benz.
 
I looked on celtic for the remapped power output of a BMW 335d and it was just monstrous,

345 hp.....it is a lot but not mega by todays standards, but..................................but.....................this is where the lunacy starts it has........... 511 lbft torque?!?!?!

thats enough to up root my house!!!!

and considering they can only get 360 hp out of the 335i, out of the 2 I'd take the diesel every time.....
 
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