An Appeal For Knowledge Regarding Cheap Diesels!

H

Hangar 18

Wrench Pro
Points
26
Location
Swindon, UK
Car
Peugeot 405 GLX
I'm looking to make the big change-over (ha!) from petrol to diesel,
my main issue- is from driving my friend's cars (New mini 1.6 td, Audi A5 coupe 3.0tdi, peugeot 306 hdi [remapped], peugeot 309 1.8td) - I've found that I love the accessible torque you get from turbo diesels- and I want in!

The cars I've been looking at include but aren't limited to:
- Peugeot 306 HDi D Turbo
- Citroen Xsara HDi VTR
- Peugeot 406 Hdi (2 + 2.2)
- Vauxhall Vectra (2.2dti and 3.0v6 cdti)
- BMW 325tds
- VW Bora (All TDi variants)
- SEAT Toledo (All TDi variants)
- And finally (Certainly least) Rover 220SDi

The only problem I have with any of the above vehicles is insurance really... I don't mind going as high as £3k on purchase cost- but because I've only been driving 2 years- the insurance companies want my kidneys...
for instance- My current car (405 glx 100hp) returns really bad mpg figures, isn't quick- but still managed to cost over £1500 on insurance last year- renewal quote isn't looking any better even WITH NCD :(

I'm actually leaning toward to 306 HDi D Turbo at the moment- because it's about the same as my current pug on insurance and I'm certain that it will handle well since it's got the GTi handling set-up.

What I'm concerned about criteria wise is the following:
- Not japanese
- Easy/cheap to upgrade/work-on
- Handling
- Over-taking ability

And I'm not worried about fuel economy, tax, age or styling so much

Any suggestions would be very helpful guys?!
 
hey and welcome ot the site.

re VW Audi Seat Skoda 1.9tdi ignore the Non PD variants. the 2 best ones are the 130 and 150bhp ones however insurance might be rather high on them for you
 
Cheers for the welcomes guys ;)

I just ran the insurance sites- the xsara (110hp), 306 (90hp) and Bora (130hp) all come back nearly identical... bit of a no brainer?
I've just seen on the AMD Essex site that you can also bump the Bora 130 up to 170 for only £400... surely that pushes it straight into the vectra 3.0 v6 cdti territory? :amuse:
 
Bora 130 is a nice motor, remap figure is a touch optimistic i think, mate had his gttdi 130 mk4 ( same lump ) mapped and it saw 157bhp. but with a diesel its all about the torque anyways!
 
Yeah, get a PD 130, then I can put you in touch with someone who can remap it to 170/290 for 125 quid. Get a Bora and it'll be cheaper than the equivalent Golf. If you get any Mk4 VAG tho you will immediately need to fit brighter bulbs as the standard lighting is abysmal.
 
Yugguy said:
Yeah, get a PD 130, then I can put you in touch with someone who can remap it to 170/290 for 125 quid. Get a Bora and it'll be cheaper than the equivalent Golf. If you get any Mk4 VAG tho you will immediately need to fit brighter bulbs as the standard lighting is abysmal.
Click to expand...

Yea man- I had a quick look at the mods for the Mk4 VAG 130pd engine- there's all sorts of kit and info about tuning them about- seems like quite a wolf in sheep's clothing! I knew that Volkswagen over-engineered the engines- but I've seen 100 extra horse power out of these engines on the web xD!!
What kind of light bulb upgrades would you recommend? I'm honestly not sure of whether Xenon/HID is legal in the Bora?


Regarding the 406 2.2 HDi- lovely car, and I'm aware that they tune- but it's the same price for me to insure the 2.2 HDi saloon AND coupe =/ £3k they want- for 12 whole months of third party "cover"... so it's one to keep in mind for a couple of years!
 
Hangar 18: Regarding the 406 2.2 HDi- lovely car, and I'm aware that they tune- but it's the same price for me to insure the 2.2 HDi saloon AND coupe =/ £3k they want- for 12 whole months of third party "cover"... so it's one to keep in mind for a couple of years!

Have you looked at comprehensive cover? 3rd party F&T is often more expensive as it's generally reserved for drivers who are not eligible for comprehensive cover on account of motor offences or who have a criminal record. £3k is outrageous if you have a clear history. Perhaps I'm out of touch :-(

They [2.2 HDi Peugeots] are great cars though, loaded with extras like electric seats, auto wipers/lights/auto-dipping mirrors, airbags all round and nice Harman Kardon audio in the GTX, SE and Executive models etc.

Extremely refined and very lively (with a good custom remap they're nearly in Boxster territory with tremendous 3rd and 4th gear shove) but don't expect 80mpg - it's not that kind of diesel. The design philosophy was performance and refinement but I still got a very credible 40mpg from mine no matter how swiftly I drove it.
 
HDi fun said:
Hangar 18: Regarding the 406 2.2 HDi- lovely car, and I'm aware that they tune- but it's the same price for me to insure the 2.2 HDi saloon AND coupe =/ £3k they want- for 12 whole months of third party "cover"... so it's one to keep in mind for a couple of years!

Have you looked at comprehensive cover? 3rd party F&T is often more expensive as it's generally reserved for drivers who are not eligible for comprehensive cover on account of motor offences or who have a criminal record. £3k is outrageous if you have a clear history. Perhaps I'm out of touch :-(

They [2.2 HDi Peugeots] are great cars though, loaded with extras like electric seats, auto wipers/lights/auto-dipping mirrors, airbags all round and nice Harman Kardon audio in the GTX, SE and Executive models etc.

Extremely refined and very lively (with a good custom remap they're nearly in Boxster territory with tremendous 3rd and 4th gear shove) but don't expect 80mpg - it's not that kind of diesel. The design philosophy was performance and refinement but I still got a very credible 40mpg from mine no matter how swiftly I drove it.
Click to expand...

I've just got quotes now- 02 plate 406 2.2 HDi 136 GTX-
Third Party Fire & Theft = £2387.97
Comprehensive = £2657.60 + £800 excess

And I didn't change any of the variables that I used to get a quote for £1600ish on a 130PS Bora- the stats are IDENTICAL- there's a hp difference of 5, 0-60 time difference of 0.1 and top speed difference of 1!(and nobody takes the book figures seriously- I'll explain why if anyone's interested?)

Insurance companies are afraid of 19/20 year olds- SIMPLE :(
 
Hangar 18 said:
I've just got quotes now- 02 plate 406 2.2 HDi 136 GTX-
Third Party Fire & Theft = £2387.97
Comprehensive = £2657.60 + £800 excess

And I didn't change any of the variables that I used to get a quote for £1600ish on a 130PS Bora- the stats are IDENTICAL- there's a hp difference of 5, 0-60 time difference of 0.1 and top speed difference of 1!(and nobody takes the book figures seriously- I'll explain why if anyone's interested?)

Insurance companies are afraid of 19/20 year olds- SIMPLE :(
Click to expand...

It's probably to do with the repair cost of bodywork after a collision. Peugeot is notoriously expensive for body panels etc.

The engines are quite different though, despite similar performance figs. The 2.2 HDi is a much smoother engine than the VAG 1.9 PD units.

But given the price differential with insurance it's probably gonna have to be the VW.

Insurers are wary of anyone under 25 now.
 
Bulbs, i just got some Halfrauds Brilliance ones, cos they were BOGOF, and they've given it good lighting capability now. You dont have to go HID but you can if you want. Engines should be bullet proof providing you service them. Standard clutch is rated to 300lb ft so keep it under that if you remap.
 
Yugguy said:
Bulbs, i just got some Halfrauds Brilliance ones, cos they were BOGOF, and they've given it good lighting capability now. You dont have to go HID but you can if you want. Engines should be bullet proof providing you service them. Standard clutch is rated to 300lb ft so keep it under that if you remap.
Click to expand...

With a re-map and a couple of bits and pieces- it will come up to about 300... what would you say about the flywheel? convert to a solid one? since I'm aware dual-mass flywheels aren't that reliable and bloody expensive?

and H4 bulbs- £20 for a pair aint too shabby... I'll just have to hope they're on offer nearer the time I actually buy the bora-
at my current salary's rate I'll be putting about £500 aside a month (starting from nil now) and I'm not quite sure which spec bora 130pd i'll be getting- so it'll be anywhere from £2-3.5k- there's another thread about it on the Bora section of the forums- I'll decide when I see!
 
I've found H4 lamps to be far inferior to the systems that have separate enclosures for dipped and mains. The separate reflectors are far better optimised for each job.

My 2.2 HDi remapped to over 320lbft but I retained the DMF. I'd be very wary of swapping out for a solid one - these WILL subject the entire car (engine, drivetrain, everything) to much higher levels of engine vibration. Especially true with 4 cylinder engines as there is a torque 'reversal' every 180 degrees of crankshaft rotation. The DMF removes that level of shock loading.

My DMF did start to fail at 120,000 miles so I had it replaced at that point, along with the clutch. The remap had been in place since about 50,000 miles so I can't really complain tbh.

But I still agree that 4 cylinder diesel engines do put demands on engines and transmissions hence the reason I'm currently driving a 6 cylinder petrol car with an auto 'box.
 
Hangar 18 said:
With a re-map and a couple of bits and pieces- it will come up to about 300... what would you say about the flywheel? convert to a solid one? since I'm aware dual-mass flywheels aren't that reliable and bloody expensive?

and H4 bulbs- £20 for a pair aint too shabby... I'll just have to hope they're on offer nearer the time I actually buy the bora-
at my current salary's rate I'll be putting about £500 aside a month (starting from nil now) and I'm not quite sure which spec bora 130pd i'll be getting- so it'll be anywhere from £2-3.5k- there's another thread about it on the Bora section of the forums- I'll decide when I see!
Click to expand...

if you're going above 300lbft, get a sachs kit. Solid flywheels can cause a lot of vibration with diesels.
 
turbonutter69 said:
You can with proper coversion kits that provide auto levelers and such.;)
There are aftermarket HID kits out there that are road legal.
Click to expand...

Even with the mandatory levellers and mandatory wash system the enclosures are still marked and approved for filament lamps, not gas discharge lamps.

And even if you do fit the OEM lighting system as fitted to a HID equipped model from the factory you still have to get a one off type approval inspection.

And even then your insurer will quite likely still classify it as a modification.
 
Yugguy said:
if you're going above 300lbft, get a sachs kit. Solid flywheels can cause a lot of vibration with diesels.
Click to expand...

So I'm guessing you mean a 130/150bhp DMF clutch like this one from sachs? or did you mean some sort of performance range?

http://www.eurocarparts.com/ecp/c/V...df6d6217207a965591bb82a26f7e9bb234cf3fb0&CLUK

I know that Sachs are meant to be good- but you reckon it'll cope with over 300lbft- and it's not actually that expensive! cheers for the assistance there buddy ;)
 
HDi fun said:
If it's possible to retain the DMF then it's best to do so.

You might even get away with the stock clutch.
Click to expand...

Well- my current position is- I'll do the mods- if the clutch starts slipping then replace it with a better one- there's no point in upgrading it and throwing the old one out if it doesn't fail right? ;)
 
I had a remap at 106k, and I kept it inder 300lbft. and at 123k the clutch started slipping. However when the mechanic stripped it down the DMF wasn't too bad (he said if it had been a warranty claim at a dealer they'd have knocked it back), and it was just the clutch plates that were worn. I changed the DMF anyway because I'll be keeping the car for a few years, but we believe that the slippage was simply due to it being a 106k car that had done a bit of towing in its time and not the remap. 290 lb/ft is about the same as 3.5 or 4.0 V8 petrol engine, and believe me it's plenty enough, especially in a FWD car.

This is what I fitted:

http://www.eurocarparts.com/ecp/c/V...c196922c340fe80470f31c312a0650d7a03ec4e6&DMFW

It's the 3 part kit, flywheel and 2 plates.
plus I fitted a new slave cylinder
 
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Mine ran out over 320lbft and that is too much in a fwd car. It's a similar torque figure to a 4.0 litre ish V8 petrol engine and that's what make the drive so effortless.
 
turbonutter69 said:
You can with proper coversion kits that provide auto levelers and such.;)
There are aftermarket HID kits out there that are road legal.
Click to expand...

not for the bora there isnt :sad2: been looking for them, means OEM, which is rare enough as it was around £1300. sets generally go for around £500 for the lights and motors. you would still need the level sensor and washers.


nightbreakers make a huge difference to my lights, much whiter and chrisper light.

crap me that clutch is cheap for the 6spd petrol one your looking for alot more than that
 
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