What's the appeal of diesel?

HDi fun

TC ModFather
Points
637
Location
Buckinghamshire UK
Car
Passat 2.0 TDi
Did you ever try the turbo-diesel one? It was crap.

The press hammered on about the way a 'drive-by-wire' accelerator had livened it up enormously. I only hope they were right as I really sympathise with anyone stuck with either it or the traditional cable accelerator models.

Painfully slow and so obviously diesel with the noise they made.

Not a car for me, at all.

It presented everything bad about diesels of the old school, perhaps the suggested 49mpg would have helped. Frankly, I'd couldn't care less, crap engine that spoilt an otherwise very nice car.
 

turbonutter69

TC ModFather
Moderator
Points
652
Location
Alone in the dark.
Car
Insignia SRI.
Did you ever try the turbo-diesel one? It was crap.

The press hammered on about the way a 'drive-by-wire' accelerator had livened it up enormously. I only hope they were right as I really sympathise with anyone stuck with either it or the traditional cable accelerator models.

Painfully slow and so obviously diesel with the noise they made.

Not a car for me, at all.

It presented everything bad about diesels of the old school, perhaps the suggested 49mpg would have helped. Frankly, I'd couldn't care less, crap engine that spoilt an otherwise very nice car.

I have drove one but only in and out of a the garage I used to work for.
 

jas55

Full member
Points
71
Location
Canterbury, Kent
Car
citroen c5
I have to say that I converted to diesel after having an X Type V6, nice car , nice engine but when my fuel bill topped £450 one month I had to make the change, luckilly my wife has a new shape Civic Type S so I can still have a bit of fun but at her expense!!
 

HDi fun

TC ModFather
Points
637
Location
Buckinghamshire UK
Car
Passat 2.0 TDi
Diesel cars can be great fun of you get a quick one and then tune it further. The one thing they don't do any longer is run for weeks on seemingly no fuel at all.
 

edk

Tuner
Points
162
Location
Surrey
Car
Almera SXE DCi 2.2
HDi fun, I totally agree with your points about how a diesel feels like a high power petrol, but unfortunatly only for the 1-5k portion! That's definitely where the apeal is. It does make it harder to get the most out of it though because of how much you need to work the gearbox. I for one found it pretty tricky getting gear changes perfect for a 1/4 mile run I did. More practice to be had, but a diesel really isnt suited to drag racing unles it's very highly tuned. Day to day driving a diesel makes a superb ride, with enough performance to shock a few faster petrols :D
 

HDi fun

TC ModFather
Points
637
Location
Buckinghamshire UK
Car
Passat 2.0 TDi
HDi fun, I totally agree with your points about how a diesel feels like a high power petrol, but unfortunatly only for the 1-5k portion! That's definitely where the apeal is. It does make it harder to get the most out of it though because of how much you need to work the gearbox. I for one found it pretty tricky getting gear changes perfect for a 1/4 mile run I did. More practice to be had, but a diesel really isnt suited to drag racing unles it's very highly tuned. Day to day driving a diesel makes a superb ride, with enough performance to shock a few faster petrols :D

That fits with my findings as well. You do have to be in the right gear, and the rev range for shove is narrow, but within it it is quick.

I don't drag race mine so it's really not an issue.

Diesels need a lot more gears to win races. VAG has managed this. But then, 1000bhp might have helped this along a bit.
 

edk

Tuner
Points
162
Location
Surrey
Car
Almera SXE DCi 2.2
There was an article in EVO about the Audi R10. Very interesting read. They went for a 5 speed box over a 6 speed but used longer ratios. I often think that my 6 speed could do with a longer 1st and 2nd that's for sure. Certainly now there's more power but I guess that would put huge strains on the drive train.
 

HDi fun

TC ModFather
Points
637
Location
Buckinghamshire UK
Car
Passat 2.0 TDi
I think it does load up the drivetrain in the lower gears. Let's face it my engines shoving out more torque than an XK8.

I've only got five gears and still find 1st very short. 2nd is not too bad but you've really got to grit you teeth if you use all the revs. It's not loud, just feels, err, wrong.
 

edk

Tuner
Points
162
Location
Surrey
Car
Almera SXE DCi 2.2
you've really got to grit you teeth if you use all the revs. It's not loud, just feels, err, wrong.

I know exactly what you mean! A custom exhaust does actually help the sound on a diesel though and makes for a sportier yet not loud, sound.
 

turbonutter69

TC ModFather
Moderator
Points
652
Location
Alone in the dark.
Car
Insignia SRI.
That fits with my findings as well. You do have to be in the right gear, and the rev range for shove is narrow, but within it it is quick.

I don't drag race mine so it's really not an issue.

Diesels need a lot more gears to win races. VAG has managed this. But then, 1000bhp might have helped this along a bit.

They don't need that many gears or a 1000bhp. Seat have proved this in the BTTC. And they have won races with their diesel car.
Oh my god......I can't believe I'm sticking up for a diesel. :confused::confused:



Right now slapped and back on track.
 

HDi fun

TC ModFather
Points
637
Location
Buckinghamshire UK
Car
Passat 2.0 TDi
I suppose more gears helps to overcome the fairly small rev range.

The same sort of applies with revvy petrol engines as well. Helps keep everything above between 4000 and 7000rpm whereas with a diesel you probably want to keep it between 2000 and 4000
 

Broken Cambelt

Torque Junkie
Points
0
Location
Somerset, UK
Car
Fiesta 1.4
Diesel is really coming of age now, a lot of the NA engines are still rubbish, and at the bottom end of the engine range ( sort of 1-1.5l motors ) you still get more with petrol. but move into the 2l turbo diesel range and you start to get some serious fun for your your money, blinding acceleration, and masses of torque, plus more MPG for the power that you are able to put down.

Think of some of the big 2.5 - 3l diesels in things like the Alfa 159 Q4, cracking engines, even before a remap, faster than the comparable petrol models, and more economical, plus bizzarly, they are still cheaper to insure, (an oversight that im sure that the insurance companies will soon remedy, tuned diesel premiums on the way.), they may be more challenging to tune, but with developments in uprated hybrid turbos, better exhausts, and less suffocating filters ect ect ect, there is certaintly advancment in the field.

It holds true that you get for what you pay for, if you by a cheap diesel, with no turbo, youll probably end up dissapointed.
 

HDi fun

TC ModFather
Points
637
Location
Buckinghamshire UK
Car
Passat 2.0 TDi
We've still got one in the form of a 1996 Seat Ibiza. It's basically a Polo with a different body (interior is identical to same age Polo, as is THE ATMO DIESEL ENGINE :-( )

It's a 1896cc indirect injection type. Rotary fuel pump, no turbo and about 70bhp at best.

To drive, therefore, it's no bundle of fire, to put it gently. It's not stunning on fuel either if driven briskly. We took it to Devon and back (400 miles round trip) over 1/2 term, fully laden and I struggled to manage 36mpg. Maybe if I didn't insist upon cruising at 85mph it might be a bit leaner.

Surprisingly well equipped for a '96 car though with PAS, e-windows, remote locking, airbags etc. None of this, of course, helps the performance very much at all because they are all HEAVY.
 

pgarner

TC ModFather
Points
417
Location
Lockerbie, SW Scotland
Car
Octy smoke machine
yeah the 68bhp diesel by the time you got up to the top model theres nearly 90bhp more - seat used 160bhp rather than 150.

seems weird that it struggles so much with economy when you look at the later PD models that woulf happily sit at 85 and still return over 50mpg
 

HDi fun

TC ModFather
Points
637
Location
Buckinghamshire UK
Car
Passat 2.0 TDi
yeah the 68bhp diesel by the time you got up to the top model theres nearly 90bhp more - seat used 160bhp rather than 150.

seems weird that it struggles so much with economy when you look at the later PD models that woulf happily sit at 85 and still return over 50mpg

Not really. Bear in mind that this is car does not even use direct injection - it's a rotary pump/distributor unit. The TDi, also indirect injection, version of ours (at the time, 1996) was only about 90bhp anyway but it does have much more flexibility and the official fuel figures are ten mpg better across the board.

The poor economy doesn't surprise me tbh on long hauls at higher speeds. It does better around town and generally manages closer to 50mpg.

What grates is that the remapped 2.2 Peugeot (which was extremely lively to say the least) would manage 40-45 mpg if driven in anger (ie. much faster than 85) on the same journey.

Consider that it's well over 1/2 ton heaver, had nearly 120 MORE bhp and well over three time the torque then you start to understand the limitations (or worthlessness) of NATASP diesel engines.
 

WLBjork

Road Burner
Points
67
Car
Octavia vRS LE
Shame the engine's so massive. You'd need the tuck of an artic. just to hold it.

Not shabby for a 50s/60s NA unit though.
 

WLBjork

Road Burner
Points
67
Car
Octavia vRS LE
Ah yes, missed that. "Mildly supercharged to improve exhaust scavenging".

Animation on wiki showing how it works anyway (just a shame that someone reversed the flows on 1/3 of the diagram).
 

indiaman

Track Warrior
Points
57
Location
Bangalore India
Car
Tata Marina diesel
Here in India, Diesel cars rule the roost, mainly because Diesel fuel is MUCH cheaper than Petrol .Petrol costs Rs 53 a litre, while a litre of Diesel is only Rs 39. (for all of you in the UK one UK Pound equals 70 Indian Rupees)
 

jarrus

Pro Tuner
Points
317
Location
West Midlands, UK
Car
Suzuki Swift Sport
I just love the big kick up the back in any gear
and I love upsetting anti diesel people as well...
price wise it's a tough call really if you were buy new then the petrol would work out a hell of alot cheaper like for like but if you want to keep it forever then the diesel will make sense,

but really the argument isn't really about cost....lets set that aside for the moment,

town driving, you can't beat a turbo diesel, most will agree...

The thing though that lets the diesel down though on the open road is the torque curve, you get all of it at about 2k rpm then it disappears....no idea why...

I've seen people who have dyno'd there 306 1.9 dt and even though the peak torque is slightly down on a more modern car the curve it's self is flat untill about 4k which i where you should change gear anyways,

It's got to be built in the ECU so that diesels aren't as quick up top, I don't think it's anything to do with the slower burn rate I'm just talking between 0 rpm and about 5-5.5k which is about what diesel can cope with,

also it's got to have something to do with the tiny turbos fitted to them as well, I know this to improve things low down but surely VNT tech should have sorted this out
the 2.2 hdi's use a GT15
, my car has a GT15 on it and will happily rev to 5k (redline) and still produce useable power

so It can be done, the v12 in the audi racer did it, I can only be put down to manufactures raining in there diesels....

even the twin turbo setups aren't completely there..
 

RobBentley

The Torque Meister
Points
0
Location
Kent, UK
Car
Audi RS6 C6 Saloon
The petrol-head seems to be dying. Went to a rolling road / remap day on Saturday and 90% of the cars where evil-diesel.
 

clio197MJB

Tuner
Points
0
Location
England - Barnsley
Car
RS Clio 197 2.0
the whole premice of diesel escapes me....sure the fuel economy is better and the 'mid-range pull' is a little sharper but when all is said and done i defy anyone (given the choice) would rather run a diesel than a petrol. its the pantomime of a petrol engine that excites us, tipping 7500rpm brings a smile, not smashing into the rev-limiter at a pedestrian 5000rpm. dont get me wrong, if i wore a wig and had a penchant for beige then diesel would be a tempting thing indeed however petrol will always have my vote for its sheer fun!!
 

RobBentley

The Torque Meister
Points
0
Location
Kent, UK
Car
Audi RS6 C6 Saloon
the whole premice of diesel escapes me....sure the fuel economy is better and the 'mid-range pull' is a little sharper but when all is said and done i defy anyone (given the choice) would rather run a diesel than a petrol. its the pantomime of a petrol engine that excites us, tipping 7500rpm brings a smile, not smashing into the rev-limiter at a pedestrian 5000rpm. dont get me wrong, if i wore a wig and had a penchant for beige then diesel would be a tempting thing indeed however petrol will always have my vote for its sheer fun!!

Quite right. As long as I can afford to run petrol, I will.
 

indiaman

Track Warrior
Points
57
Location
Bangalore India
Car
Tata Marina diesel
I can understand the dislike for Diesel vehicles, I was also one such person, Diesels got a bad reputation because the early diesels were noisy, smelly, vibro massage horrors, but all that has changed over the years, Today's diesel engines are refined, light weight, and much much more efficient than any petrol engine. They are rugged, and last for ever with timely oil changes, and use of good fuel. Also it will be worth remembering that Germany's WW2 Junkers JU88
high altitude bomber were fitted with the vertically opposed piston Jumo Diesel engines,German diesels have always been in the forefront of innovation and sound engineering.
 

jarrus

Pro Tuner
Points
317
Location
West Midlands, UK
Car
Suzuki Swift Sport
I agree with most of his points, petrols do have that panto thing about them and I would love one but the wig and beige bit.... Now that's just being a diesel hater, that image has long gone, I suggest you drive a 35d BMW and you will see what I'm talking about ;)
 

turbonutter69

TC ModFather
Moderator
Points
652
Location
Alone in the dark.
Car
Insignia SRI.
the whole premice of diesel escapes me....sure the fuel economy is better and the 'mid-range pull' is a little sharper but when all is said and done i defy anyone (given the choice) would rather run a diesel than a petrol. its the pantomime of a petrol engine that excites us, tipping 7500rpm brings a smile, not smashing into the rev-limiter at a pedestrian 5000rpm. dont get me wrong, if i wore a wig and had a penchant for beige then diesel would be a tempting thing indeed however petrol will always have my vote for its sheer fun!!


Here here a man with sense.
 

HDi fun

TC ModFather
Points
637
Location
Buckinghamshire UK
Car
Passat 2.0 TDi
But with diesel you have full torque all the way from 1500rpm to over 4500rpm. You can go from 30-90 in one gear! A peaky petrol unit is not doing all that much until 5000rpm and you're generally into the limiter at around 7000. That means you can only increase speed by 40% before changing up a gear.

Why are all you petrolheads driving naturally aspirated cars anyway? You keep telling me that it's not fair to compare these with turbochaged diesels so why do you keep buying em?
 

WLBjork

Road Burner
Points
67
Car
Octavia vRS LE
Also it will be worth remembering that Germany's WW2 Junkers JU88 high altitude bomber were fitted with the vertically opposed piston Jumo Diesel engines,German diesels have always been in the forefront of innovation and sound engineering.

I think you'll find that it was the Ju86 bombers that used the Jumo 205/207 Diesel engines.

Ju88s used the Jumo 211, which ran on 87 octane petrol.

Even then it's worth considering that the original Jumo 205s were inadequate to the task, the turbo-charged Jumo 207 being the engine adopted for the high altitude variant.
 

bye bye

Newbie
Points
21
Location
malaysia / penang
Car
rexton rx270xdi
But with diesel you have full torque all the way from 1500rpm to over 4500rpm. You can go from 30-90 in one gear! A peaky petrol unit is not doing all that much until 5000rpm and you're generally into the limiter at around 7000. That means you can only increase speed by 40% before changing up a gear.

Why are all you petrolheads driving naturally aspirated cars anyway? You keep telling me that it's not fair to compare these with turbochaged diesels so why do you keep buying em?

7000 rpm!! i can light my cigarette while waiting it to reach in 4th:embarrest:..nowdays the top selection for most mass producing car co. is diesel..more torque,more economy and no strugle for gear selection,just press the paddle :love:

don't forget the "range"..for a 700 km journey, diesel doing 130 to 150 km/h don't need any stop:oops:

BYE BYE:rolleyes:
 

Similar threads

Top