aston
The Torque Meister
Would you consider buying a rover/mg diesel. I persume the BMW 2ltr Diesel is a good reliable engine however how about the rest of the car? Any ideas? Thanksalot
Rover MG Diesel (BMW)
- Thread starter aston
- Start date
HDi fun
TC ModFather
The engine is sound, but even the later 2.0 CDTi is only 129bhp in standard tune.
BMW has been a bit stingy in this respect and has never allowed Rover access to the later engines.
All are common rail units and as such are smooth and quiet, typical of most BMW engines. They will tune to slightly over 150bhp with a remap (source: Celtic Tuning) but that's about it.
As for the rest of the car, well, the Rover 75 is a bargain. Buy one as late as you can possibly get and you'll get a comfortable and quiet car which should be pretty durable.
Also have a look at the Roewe (pronounced Ree-Wee) 750. It's a Chinese built 75 and shouldn't be dismissed. Build quality is reckoned to be second to none.
I am uncertain as to their availability in The UK.
BMW has been a bit stingy in this respect and has never allowed Rover access to the later engines.
All are common rail units and as such are smooth and quiet, typical of most BMW engines. They will tune to slightly over 150bhp with a remap (source: Celtic Tuning) but that's about it.
As for the rest of the car, well, the Rover 75 is a bargain. Buy one as late as you can possibly get and you'll get a comfortable and quiet car which should be pretty durable.
Also have a look at the Roewe (pronounced Ree-Wee) 750. It's a Chinese built 75 and shouldn't be dismissed. Build quality is reckoned to be second to none.
I am uncertain as to their availability in The UK.
aston
The Torque Meister
Well I am still looking for a bargain diesel, I was looking at MG Zt's which use the M47R BMW Engine but realised the 75 with the same engine are well under half the price of the MG. For basically the same car. Seems to be good MPG, I was looking for 306's but it seems the rover gives over 20% more mpg, and weighs almost 50% more. Not bad.
HDi fun
TC ModFather
The 306 HDi models are pretty frugal. If you can find one with the 2.0 HDi 110bhp unit (the HDi 90 lacks an intercooler) then you'll get very good economy indeed.
The earlier XUD-T engines are not in the same league for economy.
BMW's diesel engines are impressive, though the one that was fitted to the 75 is not particularly special it's still a parsimonious little engine.
The earlier XUD-T engines are not in the same league for economy.
BMW's diesel engines are impressive, though the one that was fitted to the 75 is not particularly special it's still a parsimonious little engine.
aston
The Torque Meister
Well, to be honest It seems the Fiat/GM engines, BMW and Pug/Citroen are the only recommended Derv's. The MGZT(BMW) and the multijet 147's (Fiat) seem to tick the box's for me today however no doubt tomorrow it'll be something else.
jarrus
Pro Tuner
I beg to differ there dude,
Yes, the HDi's are more frugal but not that much more, most people struggle to get 50 mpg in combined driving, I get 45 mpg on my XUD consistantly.
On a motorway trip I dare say that gap will widen but for now the real world figure speak for there selves, just ask any of the guy over on Pug306.net they will tell you,
Also I don't think they fitted the 110 Hdi in the 306's if they did it must have been a few very late ones as a "parts bin special" kind of thing
HDi fun
TC ModFather
That's fair enough. My Dad had a 1769cc XUD-T in a 405 estate and that was pretty economical.
jarrus
Pro Tuner
Yeah that was the XUD7, pretty much exactly the same as the XUD9 like mine,
In fact I have a head off an XUD7 in my garage which I'm going to use on my XUD9, they are exactly the same
In fact I have a head off an XUD7 in my garage which I'm going to use on my XUD9, they are exactly the same
HDi fun
TC ModFather
The 2.1 XUD-T is a nice engine.
aston
The Torque Meister
Funny that becausi in a pervy kind of way I allways fancied an XM (the 2.1derv) but no doubt that is certainly asking for trouble
HDi fun
TC ModFather
The appeal is its strong performance for a 4 cylinder derv of its age.
If you can find a Xantia with Citroen's Hyrdactive II suspension and it has strong history (of course, it must work properly as well
) then you have a very interesting car. I'd be careful to make sure you have a local Citroen specialist on hand though.
Citroen's XM is worth a look as well, purely for its exclusivity. They are quiet and refined cars.
If you can find a Xantia with Citroen's Hyrdactive II suspension and it has strong history (of course, it must work properly as well
) then you have a very interesting car. I'd be careful to make sure you have a local Citroen specialist on hand though.Citroen's XM is worth a look as well, purely for its exclusivity. They are quiet and refined cars.
jarrus
Pro Tuner
Yeah complecated bit of kit, look out for one with a bosch ve fuel pump, they are much more reliable than the later Lucas EPIC pumps (ironicly.....considering the name)
aston
The Torque Meister
So which is the better buy for an old car, the Bosch Pump Xud or the HDI, Cheers
HDi fun
TC ModFather
Either will serve you well. As Jarrus has noted, the 2.1 is very complex for an IDI engine and is perhaps not the very best of choices.
If you got your hands on a 406 with the 2.2 HDi 16v engine you will get what I consider to be one of the best diesel cars of its era.
They're not cheap to service - however, the 2.0 HDi engines are no better in this respect.
The 2.2 responds well to ECU remapping - I'd recommend this to anyone - and is extremely quiet and refined. Not just in the usual 'for a diesel' kind of a way but is so in its own right.
If you got your hands on a 406 with the 2.2 HDi 16v engine you will get what I consider to be one of the best diesel cars of its era.
They're not cheap to service - however, the 2.0 HDi engines are no better in this respect.
The 2.2 responds well to ECU remapping - I'd recommend this to anyone - and is extremely quiet and refined. Not just in the usual 'for a diesel' kind of a way but is so in its own right.
aston
The Torque Meister
From what I could make out the 2.2 is not very good on fuel. I am not too interested in mega power as there is so much congestion there is never a chance to use it on my daily commute, But like all immature big kids I like to chase numbers....stupid isn't it
HDi fun
TC ModFather
You're right. It's not the most frugal of engines. Mine managed about 38mpg on average over the 105,000 miles I had it.
Were it not for that horrific situation in which I found myself on 24th June 2009 I'd still have it now.
But, and this is the key, for the performance it had on offer (and which I used daily) it was a very sensible car for ny needs.
Well equipped - all the usual toys plus climate control, auto dipping mirrors, auto wipers, lights, ten airbags (hence I'm still alive and well), full electric seat adjustment driver and passenger, etc etc.
Producer
Full member
I agree to HDI fun. It is quiet and durable. It is little complicated to get parts since it is not on stream (I don't know, maybe it is different in other countries). I hope Roewe's return to market could solve it.
In general my car is realiable and I can give it to my wife without worry that something serious could happen on a trip.
derek999
New member
Hi there.
The M47R engine was deliberately nobbled by BMW when fitted to MGR vehicles to keep a performance gap between the two. Many of these differences can be removed very simply and the result is a very quick and frugal vehicle. My ZT Tourer has around 170bhp and regularly gives 53+mpg on motorway runs cruising at 75/80. Mods include EGR removal, a fueling computer, decat, and a freeflow air intake (which was severely strangled), but so far no remap required even though engine was 116bhp model originally. Total cost for mods so far around £250.
Car is roomy, smooth and comfortable for 5 people with all the toys you need including cruise, xenons, aircon, leather, full electrics, etc.
Around 200bhp is possible by raising boost from 17psi to 20psi max, but clutch and intercooler need to be uprated for that.
It has to be one of the best value diesels around with easily the highest spec for the price, plus it is very solidly built as you would expect from what is really a BMW in disguise!
The M47R engine was deliberately nobbled by BMW when fitted to MGR vehicles to keep a performance gap between the two. Many of these differences can be removed very simply and the result is a very quick and frugal vehicle. My ZT Tourer has around 170bhp and regularly gives 53+mpg on motorway runs cruising at 75/80. Mods include EGR removal, a fueling computer, decat, and a freeflow air intake (which was severely strangled), but so far no remap required even though engine was 116bhp model originally. Total cost for mods so far around £250.
Car is roomy, smooth and comfortable for 5 people with all the toys you need including cruise, xenons, aircon, leather, full electrics, etc.
Around 200bhp is possible by raising boost from 17psi to 20psi max, but clutch and intercooler need to be uprated for that.
It has to be one of the best value diesels around with easily the highest spec for the price, plus it is very solidly built as you would expect from what is really a BMW in disguise!
aston
The Torque Meister
Do you still have the car? Please elaborate on the jobs needed to de-restrict the engine on the cheap as it looks like I am about to buy a mgr diesel, thanks
derek999
New member
Hello Aston.
Apologies for delay - have been away from home until this evening.
Firstly, the MGR version of the M47 differs from the BMW in that the BMW is not common rail (I believe the MGR was the first UK built vehicle to have it).
BMW quickly realised that its performance was significantly better than their own engine however and took steps to reduce that in order to prevent too many red faces once it hit the road.
The major area they changed in this respect was the inlet tract:
On the MGR this is fed through a plastic moulding behind the grill, under the top engine cover then out into the inlet airbox.Most of this journey is through a moulding which is in places under 10mm wide, in order to fit under the cover! Some owners cut this moulding just at the front edge of the engine cover, which helps, but it is far better to use a rubber pipe connected at the inlet of the air box, fed below the intercooler to inlet manifold pipe, and pointed in the direction of travel, to give a Ram effect.
This simple mod (about £10.00 for a length of radiator hose about 68mm internal diameter - check first as it is a long time since I did this mod) gave me the most significant improvement for the money.
Next, the EGR valve between inlet manifold input and the intercooler pipe should be replaced with a bypass (around £45 on ebay), since they have a tendancy to clog up very badly which is extremely undesirable as it will reduce the intake airflow, especially with the already strangled input volume. Mine was about 3/4 clogged!
I also fitted one of the diesel tuning boxes. It is said that they are all the same, but the unit supplied by Diesel Tuning Ltd. has about the best reputation as far as I know, and the difference it made was tremendous.
Unfortunately there seems to be nobody supplying Decat pipes for the model so I made my own as the front flexible coupling just below the turbo was a bit suspect. I used an aftermarket stainless flexi-coupling together with a suitable length of stainless tubing from the same supplier (MJExhaust)and it all just fitted together in place of the Cat and flexi. It will need to be measured up first as there are many different front pipes around so the dimensions will differ.
The BMW models all use different ECUs and obviously the internal software is totally different so they cannot be utilised, but it is now possible to have the MGR models remapped for £100 to finish the job (I will pass the information on who and where if required).
It is even possible to use remaps in conjunction with diesel tuning boxes, and this is where Diesel Tuning will help as they can produce models to do this if required.
Taking things any further requires a different turbo, intercooler and a much higher rated clutch on a solid flywheel preferably, which tends to add to the cost rather a lot, and then brings the stopping power into question.
Having around 165/170 bhp on this car is absolutely amazing compared with the original 116.
There is a tendancy for the inlet pipe to the intercooler to fail due to the demise of 2 "O" rings in its connector (wrong rubber compound used by factory)which causes very sluggish perforformance (and a total smokescreen on motorways), so this is a sensible check to make, along with the MAF sensor which can have a significant effect on performance and economy (disconnect it electrically and drive without it in circuit) and if performance improves, it needs relacing.
These are strictly normal maintenace jobs - but they get missed as they are not listed in service schedules, and it is amazing how badly the car will run if they are not taken care of.
That should give you food for thought but please feel free to ask if you have any other questions.
All the best and merry Christmas.
Derek
Apologies for delay - have been away from home until this evening.
Firstly, the MGR version of the M47 differs from the BMW in that the BMW is not common rail (I believe the MGR was the first UK built vehicle to have it).
BMW quickly realised that its performance was significantly better than their own engine however and took steps to reduce that in order to prevent too many red faces once it hit the road.
The major area they changed in this respect was the inlet tract:
On the MGR this is fed through a plastic moulding behind the grill, under the top engine cover then out into the inlet airbox.Most of this journey is through a moulding which is in places under 10mm wide, in order to fit under the cover! Some owners cut this moulding just at the front edge of the engine cover, which helps, but it is far better to use a rubber pipe connected at the inlet of the air box, fed below the intercooler to inlet manifold pipe, and pointed in the direction of travel, to give a Ram effect.
This simple mod (about £10.00 for a length of radiator hose about 68mm internal diameter - check first as it is a long time since I did this mod) gave me the most significant improvement for the money.
Next, the EGR valve between inlet manifold input and the intercooler pipe should be replaced with a bypass (around £45 on ebay), since they have a tendancy to clog up very badly which is extremely undesirable as it will reduce the intake airflow, especially with the already strangled input volume. Mine was about 3/4 clogged!
I also fitted one of the diesel tuning boxes. It is said that they are all the same, but the unit supplied by Diesel Tuning Ltd. has about the best reputation as far as I know, and the difference it made was tremendous.
Unfortunately there seems to be nobody supplying Decat pipes for the model so I made my own as the front flexible coupling just below the turbo was a bit suspect. I used an aftermarket stainless flexi-coupling together with a suitable length of stainless tubing from the same supplier (MJExhaust)and it all just fitted together in place of the Cat and flexi. It will need to be measured up first as there are many different front pipes around so the dimensions will differ.
The BMW models all use different ECUs and obviously the internal software is totally different so they cannot be utilised, but it is now possible to have the MGR models remapped for £100 to finish the job (I will pass the information on who and where if required).
It is even possible to use remaps in conjunction with diesel tuning boxes, and this is where Diesel Tuning will help as they can produce models to do this if required.
Taking things any further requires a different turbo, intercooler and a much higher rated clutch on a solid flywheel preferably, which tends to add to the cost rather a lot, and then brings the stopping power into question.
Having around 165/170 bhp on this car is absolutely amazing compared with the original 116.
There is a tendancy for the inlet pipe to the intercooler to fail due to the demise of 2 "O" rings in its connector (wrong rubber compound used by factory)which causes very sluggish perforformance (and a total smokescreen on motorways), so this is a sensible check to make, along with the MAF sensor which can have a significant effect on performance and economy (disconnect it electrically and drive without it in circuit) and if performance improves, it needs relacing.
These are strictly normal maintenace jobs - but they get missed as they are not listed in service schedules, and it is amazing how badly the car will run if they are not taken care of.
That should give you food for thought but please feel free to ask if you have any other questions.
All the best and merry Christmas.
Derek
Yugguy
Torque King
LOL.
I once got shot down in flames on Pistonheads for daring to suggest that BMW deliberately knobbled diesel engines that they let other manufacturers use.
Wish I'd had had the above info at the time, very interesting.
I once got shot down in flames on Pistonheads for daring to suggest that BMW deliberately knobbled diesel engines that they let other manufacturers use.
Wish I'd had had the above info at the time, very interesting.
HDi fun
TC ModFather
I knew BMW always kept the higher output 4 cylinders diesels for in-house usage. What I didn't know was that there was a 2.0 litre unit before the 136bhp common rail one.
aston
The Torque Meister
Thank you Derek, I have actually just shook hands on an X type Diesel (It was at a price and condition I couldn't refuse) High mileage but with a full Jaguar service history and all Jaguar MOT's so hopefully will last a while. (I'm a big fan of Mondeo's)
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