Speed Limits
- Thread starter old-git
- Start date
st24
The Torque Meister
If there are street lights 30 if not 60.
Bottom right of the Tom Tom display.
Or what he said about street lights - but they need to be spaced 100 yards apart for a 30 limit IIRC.
Or what he said about street lights - but they need to be spaced 100 yards apart for a 30 limit IIRC.
pgarner
TC ModFather
60 on all roads other than dual carrageway.
dependent on what is being driven at the time
dependent on what is being driven at the time
HDi fun
TC ModFather
I still think it's a moronic piece of outmoded legislation. So many places round here have been converted from 40mph roads - with signs - to 30mph roads without. And the average speeds have generally gone UP.
If you want folk to obey a speed limit then the first thing to do is ram down their throats what the limit actually is.
And please don't quote me the HW code etc. I KNOW what it says
If you want folk to obey a speed limit then the first thing to do is ram down their throats what the limit actually is.
And please don't quote me the HW code etc. I KNOW what it says
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Rudders666
Torque Master
I HATE the bull about "well, the street lights are 100 yards apart". Tell you what, I'll just jump out with my tape and measure before driving down any stretch of road. Stupid. Put up signs! I always err on the side of caution and assume it's a 30 if no signs
davalav
Pro Tuner
A bit off topic, but there is a private driveway just outside of South Woodham which has a speed limit of 60. Yet the main road is only 40....
Sorry OG but that isn't correct anymore.
It isn't? I know I retired over 2 years ago but didn't realise the regs have changed. What is the new criteria?
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It doesn't go on street lamps anymore.
If a speed limit is anything other than 30 then repeater signs will be in place to remind you. If say the limit comes down from 40 to 30 then only one big 30 sign will be placed with no repeater signs until the limit changes again.
So if you do miss the big sign that says 30 and you don't see any repeater signs, you know it's a 30.
If a speed limit is anything other than 30 then repeater signs will be in place to remind you. If say the limit comes down from 40 to 30 then only one big 30 sign will be placed with no repeater signs until the limit changes again.
So if you do miss the big sign that says 30 and you don't see any repeater signs, you know it's a 30.
Private driveway? This will have no official speed limit as it does not form part of the public road network.
HDi fun
TC ModFather
So even if there is no street lighting fixtures at all there are still no repeaters?
I can't find any refernce to the regs changing. This site confirms my understanding of the regs. If you have found anything different, please let me know as, being the self-proclaimed resident pedant, I hate getting things wrong
As I interpret it yes HDi.
At the end of last year I did a speed awareness course with TTC training.
Alot of what we was told I questioned as I thought it was down to street lamps. It's not.
Next time your out and about have a look and take notice of what signs are where.
I promise you there will be no repeater signs in a 30 limit.
They highway code changes that many times in a year it is very very difficult to obtain an actual up to date version.
At the end of last year I did a speed awareness course with TTC training.
Alot of what we was told I questioned as I thought it was down to street lamps. It's not.
Next time your out and about have a look and take notice of what signs are where.
I promise you there will be no repeater signs in a 30 limit.
They highway code changes that many times in a year it is very very difficult to obtain an actual up to date version.
I can't find any refernce to the regs changing. This site confirms my understanding of the regs. If you have found anything different, please let me know as, being the self-proclaimed resident pedant, I hate getting things wrong
HDi fun
TC ModFather
So in the village of Radclive, North Bucks, where there are still several repeater signs what are we to assume?
That it might actually not be a 30mph limit after all? ! ?
Who the hell are we paying to make these ridiculous decisions and rules?
That it might actually not be a 30mph limit after all? ! ?
Who the hell are we paying to make these ridiculous decisions and rules?
davalav
Pro Tuner
You know the road that comes off to go to butterfly wings, I think its called, just outside of Woodham? There is a garden centre, along that road which then takes you to Rettendon, there is a small country lane which leads to a house, and at the top of the lane, there are national speed limit signs. This lane only goes to a house, I presumed it was a private road, which made me wonder.
The Highway Code isn't the law, the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 is. I am not aware of any updates that have changed the role of street lamps in determining speed limits.
The way it has been for the 38 years I was working (and before) is:
Single carriageway road with no system of street lamps and no speed limit signs - 60mph
Single carriageway road with a system of street lamps and no speed limit signs - 30mph.
A system is defined as a minimum of three lamps spaced no further then 200 yards apart. I have yet to be shown evidence that this has changed.
Quite simple system which saves a lot of money. If every speed limit had to be signed (including estate roads) the cost of installation (in lit areas they would also have to be lit) would be astronomical and would exceed the annual highway maintenance budget of most highway authorities. Then there is the ongoing maintenance costs. Also, missing signs could lead to limits being unenforcable. Lamp columns rarely go missing
The system has worked for many years, it's the drivers that are the problem as they just can't be arsed to learn the rules.
The way it has been for the 38 years I was working (and before) is:
Single carriageway road with no system of street lamps and no speed limit signs - 60mph
Single carriageway road with a system of street lamps and no speed limit signs - 30mph.
A system is defined as a minimum of three lamps spaced no further then 200 yards apart. I have yet to be shown evidence that this has changed.
Quite simple system which saves a lot of money. If every speed limit had to be signed (including estate roads) the cost of installation (in lit areas they would also have to be lit) would be astronomical and would exceed the annual highway maintenance budget of most highway authorities. Then there is the ongoing maintenance costs. Also, missing signs could lead to limits being unenforcable. Lamp columns rarely go missing
The system has worked for many years, it's the drivers that are the problem as they just can't be arsed to learn the rules.
I don't know the village in question, so I am not qualified to comment on the validity of the limit.
The Road Traffic Regulations Act 1984 is pretty tight on how speed limits should be signed. The main problem trained and qualified highway engineers have are the unqualified, untrained, locally elected politicians that often run roughshod over their engineers' advice and recommendations.
There is a road that runs through Cold Norton village (Davalav will know it) that has a system of street lamps but 30mph repeaters were installed at the insistence of a County Councillor. The result was that no one could be prosecuted for speeding as the system was illegal. It took me 4 years to get the signs removed so the police could enforce the limit.
So, the people who cause most of the problems, IMO and experience, are the people we elect to represent us.
davalav
Pro Tuner
The Highway Code isn't the law, the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 is. I am not aware of any updates that have changed the role of street lamps in determining speed limits.
The way it has been for the 38 years I was working (and before) is:
Single carriageway road with no system of street lamps and no speed limit signs - 60mph
Single carriageway road with a system of street lamps and no speed limit signs - 30mph.
A system is defined as a minimum of three lamps spaced no further then 200 yards apart. I have yet to be shown evidence that this has changed.
Quite simple system which saves a lot of money. If every speed limit had to be signed (including estate roads) the cost of installation (in lit areas they would also have to be lit) would be astronomical and would exceed the annual highway maintenance budget of most highway authorities. Then there is the ongoing maintenance costs. Also, missing signs could lead to limits being unenforcable. Lamp columns rarely go missing
The system has worked for many years, it's the drivers that are the problem as they just can't be arsed to learn the rules.
Agree 100% here mate. It's people, not the government. Wow... that's a first!
Just like to add as well... One of the first things you learn when driving with an instructor is how to identify speed limits on roads without clearly indicated signs. I was never told the exact spacing, but any single carriageway roads with lampposts close together is a 30 zone. It's common sense then after.
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davalav
Pro Tuner
I know the one buddy. I was unaware of those facts though, about being prosecuted! I swear there all still there though? There is also a digital one aswell, which smiles when you drop below 30.
I hope not, I took all of the little buggers out many years ago!
I put the pair of flashing speed signs up
The one coming from Latchingdon was a pain to set up and was still giving me problems when I retired. The manufacturers said it was due to the steepness of the hill but I can't see how that would affect the sensor.HDi fun
TC ModFather
Are these radar or optical devices?
davalav
Pro Tuner
I hope not, I took all of the little buggers out many years ago!
I put the pair of flashing speed signs up
In that case... They're brilliant then.
They don't bother me at all. I think you'll have to be a lunatic to speed through such a small village anyway.
In that case... They're brilliant then.
They don't bother me at all. I think you'll have to be a lunatic to speed through such a small village anyway.
That has always been the problem with speed limit enforcement. In order to compare one road's traffic speed to another the method that used to be used (I think it has changed to the mean speed of all traffic now) was called the 85th %ile. This was the speed at which 85% of the traffic travelled at or below.
The thinking was that it would be unfair to prioritise traffic calming/management based on a relativly few idiots exceeding this figure. It was thought better to concentrate limited resources on roads where the majority of drivers were exceeding the limit.
Also, the drivers exceeding this figure tended to be the type that would speed regardless of the calming measures installed. The type of draconian measures that would be required to slow these people down would be deemed unacceptable to the majority of drivers and especially those living near to them.
Radar.
HDi fun
TC ModFather
Radar is a notoriously blunt and indiscriminate instrument. It's fine for airborne applications - aircraft operate in free space but in the confines of a road with any furniture it's questionable in my opinion. Throw an incline into the mix - angles other than right ones and I suspect this is why the devices are dubious in their ability to work sufficiently accurately in some circumstances.
I suspect this is why Gatso devices are rarely seen on steep hills.
And also why laser interferometry devices (Such as Lidar 2020) are far more popular with police forces.
Even so - TVP service will NOT operate mobile LiDAR traps on roads with inclines. Perhaps solely because a descending car might stray a few MPH over the limit under the influence of gravity.
I need to qualify my opinions - I have no problems at all understanding the speed limit for any road or complying with them. It concerns me that the instant I post a few controversial opinions people seem to think I am endorsing speeding. I am not.
@OG - what's the problem with costs when it comes to mounting repeater signs everywhere? Especially when the road in question isn't in a obviously built up area . . . . .
I suspect this is why Gatso devices are rarely seen on steep hills.
And also why laser interferometry devices (Such as Lidar 2020) are far more popular with police forces.
Even so - TVP service will NOT operate mobile LiDAR traps on roads with inclines. Perhaps solely because a descending car might stray a few MPH over the limit under the influence of gravity.
I need to qualify my opinions - I have no problems at all understanding the speed limit for any road or complying with them. It concerns me that the instant I post a few controversial opinions people seem to think I am endorsing speeding. I am not.
@OG - what's the problem with costs when it comes to mounting repeater signs everywhere? Especially when the road in question isn't in a obviously built up area . . . . .
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The problem with cost is the cost
Total road length in Great Britian is approx 248,200 miles.
Motorways - 2,720 miles
A roads - 30,100 miles
B roads - 18,885 miles
Minor roads - 196,495 miles (predominately country lanes and estate roads)
The maximum distance between repeater signs varies between 273 and 656 yards depending on road length and speed limit. Let's take the average of the two and assume signs are 465 yards apart. This means there will be 3.78 signs per mile. Multiplying by 196,495 gives you 742,751 signs.
With the signs being so far apart road safety traffic management would have to be set up individually for each one to be erected. The last contract I was involved in (around 3 years ago) had a minimum charge of £350 a site, equating to a total coast of £259,962,850.
This does not take into account the cost of supply power to the signs erected in lit areas (most estate roads). I am guessing a bit here, but this could easily double the cost of the work (public utility companies charge silly money to make connections), giving a total of over £519 million. On top of this would be the ongoing maintenance of the signs and lighting.
Plus the regs would have to be changed, costing many hundreds of thousands of pounds.
And to what end?
To put this into some kind of perspective, Essex County Council has announced that it plans to spend £180 million over the next 4 years maintaining and enhancing the County's highway network.
HDi fun
TC ModFather
So you spent a proportion your time working justifying not doing things - just as you're doing here. And then you retire early on a fully inflated guaranteed final salary pension funded by the public purse ...... ??
davalav
Pro Tuner
Thanks for the explanation buddy. I now further understand all these measures. Shame there are so many morons on our roads which cause the local councils and enforcement officials to bring in the measures in the first place.
So if a 1000 drivers come through a week and only 100 of them are going 15% over the speed limit ( enough to cause speed cameras to go off ) would the local authorities deem it acceptable to disrupt the genuine drivers that stick to limits? Or would the said figure be more like 700 drivers out of the 1000?
Actually, no. As engineers we spent a good proportion of our time trying to find ways to do things within the limited budget available. This entailed working out the cost of a scheme, prioritising it against MANY other schemes and then presenting this to the elected County Council Members for them to make the final decision on which schemes get funded.
If we went to them with a proposal to spend the entire highway maintenance budget on repeater signs someone would be in trouble! I can also imagine the media headlines. They would have a field day as they love nothing better than bashing councils, apart from sex scandals.
You may consider that I am trying to justify not spending the money on repeater signs, but I am just pointing out the cost of such a scheme. In real life, EVERYTHING comes down to available funds.
Perhaps you should consider spending a little time justifying why the money should be spent on this rather than essential repairs and maintenance of the existing network which is already in dire need of extra funding
Contrary to popular belief, the majority of council employees don't get fully (?) inflated pensions, hence having to deliver parcels 3 days a week even with a final salary pension!
HDi fun
TC ModFather
In fairness this whole country is strapped for cash tbh
davalav
Pro Tuner
Actually, no. As engineers we spent a good proportion of our time trying to find ways to do things within the limited budget available. This entailed working out the cost of a scheme, prioritising it against MANY other schemes and then presenting this to the elected County Council Members for them to make the final decision on which schemes get funded.
If we went to them with a proposal to spend the entire highway maintenance budget on repeater signs someone would be in trouble! I can also imagine the media headlines. They would have a field day as they love nothing better than bashing councils, apart from sex scandals.
You may consider that I am trying to justify not spending the money on repeater signs, but I am just pointing out the cost of such a scheme. In real life, EVERYTHING comes down to available funds.
Perhaps you should consider spending a little time justifying why the money should be spent on this rather than essential repairs and maintenance of the existing network which is already in dire need of extra funding
Contrary to popular belief, the majority of council employees don't get fully (?) inflated pensions, hence having to deliver parcels 3 days a week even with a final salary pension!
The roads around here are terrible. My tires would last longer on a Safari then on British roads.
Rudders666
Torque Master
Aren't all the speed limits vastly outdated anyway? Based on cars about 80 years ago? I certainly know that things like stopping distances are.
HDi fun
TC ModFather
I agree in some cases yes. But I am against raising the 30 limit. In general I'd quite like to see 20mph in built up areas.
The Highway Code stopping distances were always only a guide and were to show people how the total stopping distance increased quicker than the actual speed.
For modern Britain with modern cars the total stopping distance is exactly the same, just the thinking distance and stopping distance are reversed
Agree. Human evolution has designed us to be able to generally survive a violent impact at 20mph.
It doesn't matter how good your brakes are, hitting a child at 40mph who runs out in front of you still kills them.
HDi fun
TC ModFather
OG - is there something in the RTA that requires 20 limits to be self enforcing - ie pinch points etc. or am I dreaming?
The regulations now allow two types of 20mph installations. One with and one without self enforcing features:
http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/tal-1999/TAL_9-991.pdf
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