Is adding ethanol to petrol a bad idea?

[obi_waynne]

Is the adding of ethanol to petrol a bad idea? They went for this in the US big time and now a percentage of all petrol contains ethanol. There are a lot of debates on this so I just wondered if you had come across any useful info?

The enviro tree huggers will probably get this introduced over in the Uk at some point as the Ethanol can be produced from renwable, fluffy carbon free, additive free sources:shock: The idea is that if we all use 10% ethanol then our oil consumption drops by 10%. In reality it appears to have a much darker side.

 

[blacklineninja]

As far as I was aware, the bio-ethanol fuel (75% ethanol, 15% petrol) although it still emitted carbon which is the Government's brand new hate target, it cuts down on the really harmful chemicals produced such as carbon monoxide and hydrogen chloride which is why I thought using this method of fuel would be ideal for the ten or so years that it would take to perfect Honda's fuel cell technology or development of alternative clean burning renewable fuels. What's the darker side all about?

 

[HDi fun]

I would suggest mixing ethanol with petrol, you can do untold damage to the injectors due to vew low lubricity and viscosity.

Spark ignition cars designed for Biofuels have different injector seals etc.

Also, raw ethanol is subject to Customs and Excise Duty.

Having siad that, if this stupid bloody government would wake up and start dealing with environmental issues properly rather than as a cash cow we might get more interest from the public.

 

[pgarner]

but where do you get all the ethanol in the first place? the amount of crop that is required would mean most of the farm in britain producing the stuff and not growing much else what are we going to do then ?

 

[blacklineninja]

Would ethanol farming not create thousands more jobs, thuis solving two problems at once?

I was researching on a website way back before Christmas 2006 which advised that new fuel pumps and injectors would be required to convert a normal petrol car to run on bio-ethanol, but from what I could tell the bio-ethanol would need to be much more readily available to make it worth doing.

What happened to LPG? That was meant to be the eco solution the automotive industry had been searching for? I remember Quantin Wilson blasting a daffodil with his Land Rover's exhaust to prove it a few years ago...?

 

[pgarner]

i was thinking more along the lines of space. were always getting told theres a shortage of space for housing etc where are they suddenly going to find the space to grow it all and continue to farm conventional crops and livestock ?

dont know if you seen the last series of top gear but the previous series they planted a field of rapeseed to make their own bio fuel, which ended up being bio diesel as wrong crop used. This only gave them enough to last the a 24hour race at silverstone. Granted that the car was driven harder than what it would have been on the road so more fuel would be consumed but still... it was a big field

lpg think the main problem with that was the price i was quoted £1300 to convert the car and it would take around 4 years to reclaim the cost. unless your a very high mileage driver then chances are you may be thinking about getting rid of the car by the time you recoup the cost of the conversion. even if you are a high mileage driver then chances are you would be driving a diesel, 55mpg compared to around 35mpg ( motorway driving )

 

[HDi fun]

That's the dark bit.

We're All DOOMED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[blacklineninja]

Maybe land in third world countries could be used to grow the crops then the fuel companies could buy it back, thus helping them WORK THEMSELVES OUT OF POVERTY!

Hurrah! World saved.

I think about these things too simplistically, don't I?

 

[HDi fun]

The problem then is transporting the stuff. What do you plan to burn in order to cart millions of tons of grain around the world? Or, for that matter, the refined fuel?

Perhaps we could soften the legislation on GM crops and allow them to be grown for fuel production, thereby optimising the yield.

 

[obi_waynne]

Interestingly the only way to transport ethanol is in a tank of some sort. It picks up water very easily so must be carefully transported. It also carries less energy than petrol and has been blamed for engine damage where it has been added to the petrol supplies.

Some interesting info here
http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/may2006/tc20060519_225336.htm
http://www.frontpagemilwaukee.com/site/Viewer.aspx?iid=7041&mname=Article
http://www.news.com/5208-11392_3-0.html?forumID=1&threadID=26114&messageID=252274&start=0

There is also the impact on food supplies. So if the choice is food or fuel I guess we'd have to go for fuel.

 

[pgarner]

so we can either starve or drive....

what we need to do is give up on all alternative fuels and work on the problems of cold fusion, separating water into hydrogen and oxygen cheaply and at a fast enough rate where we can use the H and O2 to burn making water then change it back to H and O2 quick enough to use again before the tank emptys.

only problem with this would be the global economy would fall to pieces nobody would need fossil fuels gas oil coal etc

 

[HDi fun]

I suppose if we all started driving about in cars that did 300mpg on tap water it would spell disaster for world economy.

That said, Gordon and Alastair both keep telling us that fossil fuel duty is applied in the interests of the environment. So I assume they'd prefer it if we didn't buy the stuff.

Anyone?

 

[ascaudio]

probably make the engine run hot burn the oil and boil the water not to mention the damage to engine parts .nos is the exception as it combusts its explosion actually cussions the sudden bang meaning engines dont blow .
i wouldnt recomend ethenol unlss you got a drag car

 

[obi_waynne]

The really annoying thing is that there are proposals to add ethanol to all unleaded fuel sold in the UK. It would be nice to have a choice in the matter - if people are aware of the issues there will be more resistance.

 

[pgarner]

That said, Gordon and Alastair both keep telling us that fossil fuel duty is applied in the interests of the environment. So I assume they'd prefer it if we didn't buy the stuff.

Anyone?

So howd they get to work ? never see them on pubic transport

 

[HDi fun]

The point I'm trying to make is that the government relies upon our use of fossil fuels for the duty it attracts.

That's why they're not at all keen on making RME and such fuels easily available.

Brown does not care about the environment at all.

 

[StevieDB9]

i dont see why theres such a hype about it. yes burning ethanol will cut down on nitrates and sulphates being produced but it will still result in carbon dioxide which is the main problem anyway.

 

[pgarner]

but the "idea" is that the crop absorbs CO2 while its growing. plants take in the CO2 and convert it to O2. so the carbon that is given off when burning the ethanol is then used by the next crop

 

[HDi fun]

Ive got it!

Let's invent an engine that can run on potato peelings!

Easy really

 

[obi_waynne]

Spud You Trike could be the brand name for a new 3 wheeled potatoe driven vehicle. There could be a race league with specktaters everywhere watching. Chips Away would have to appeal to a whole different market!

Sorry!

 

[HDi fun]

Talking of chips (culinary type, not embedded LSIs in ECUs) I did run our 96 Seat 1.9D on 80% raw cooking oil for a couple of months. And it worked very well indeed. And the exhaust had a distinct frying aroma.

If you're going to do this the seek lots of engine specific advice firstly. Don't follow advice from biodiesel produers as they usually have little knowledge of modern diesel injection systems. The Seat we tried was the old VW 1896cc indirect injection non turbo engine with a Bosch rotary pump.

You MUST register with HM Customs and pay duty as well.

 

[pgarner]

new modern common rail cant run with chip fat as it will just bugger the injectors however i think you can can get systems that can make 10 gallons a day of a version of bio diesel which can run without damage ???? not 100% sure. but im sure that it requires ether methanol or ethanol to thin it down.

your allowed to make a certain amount before HM customs want a slice ( i think its around 1500 ltrs a year )

 

[StevieDB9]

but the "idea" is that the crop absorbs CO2 while its growing. plants take in the CO2 and convert it to O2. so the carbon that is given off when burning the ethanol is then used by the next crop

ah, i see. rubbish idea. the co2 from exhausts will dissipate up into the atmosphere out of reach of the crops. there probably isnt even such a thing as global warming. its all propaganda. the earths been heating up and cooling down since it was born. nothing to worry about.

seriously though, didnt someone propose building a sort of plastic dome tunnel like think covering all the main roads in britain made of some special polymer that would act on the emissions? anyone know what im talking about?!

 

[HDi fun]

new modern common rail cant run with chip fat as it will just bugger the injectors however i think you can can get systems that can make 10 gallons a day of a version of bio diesel which can run without damage ???? not 100% sure. but im sure that it requires ether methanol or ethanol to thin it down.

your allowed to make a certain amount before HM customs want a slice ( i think its around 1500 ltrs a year )

I know, you can't operate a common rail system on cooking oil. new/used, filtered or not as it will wreck the injectors and pumps.

THe process to which you refer is transesterification, and it does render filtered cooking oil down to something that will operate in high pressure engines.

Sadly, you can't use it in engines that have Euro IV compliant particle filters as the fuel borne catalyst is incompatible with such fuels.

Which rules mine out straight away.

So, it's back to peeling spuds then!!!

Cheers,

P.

 

[obi_waynne]

seriously though, didnt someone propose building a sort of plastic dome tunnel like think covering all the main roads in britain made of some special polymer that would act on the emissions? anyone know what im talking about?!

Thats the Dartford tunnel It gets very smelly and requires you to hold your breath whilst you drive through and switch your fan to recircualte.

I heard the news this morning that the goverment are being lobbied to review the environmental impact of bio fuel mixed with regular fuel. Wonder if they will actually listen or we'll get another "solution" with hidden costs.

 

[obi_waynne]

Ok guys - this legislation is now in force. We don't have a choice - all pump fuel sold in the UK will now contain biofuel.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7347142.stm

Watch your MPG closely - I bet it goes down. Well at least the price is a little lower. Hang on a minute it's gone up! (1.10 per litre down here for unleaded!)

 

[pgarner]

ok seeing as biofuel is cheaper than normal can we get a 2.5% cut in duty tax then 5% in 2010.

i wonder if we can also claim off them for damage to seals, as is this not an issue in america ?

 

[HDi fun]

At high dilution ratios with pump fuel there's no issue with seals and gaskets. You won't get a duty reduction as this government is not interested in rewarding anyone really. Things might have been easier economically if the UK hadn't got itself involved in the Iraq conflicts. That was a hiding to nowhere.

 

[obi_waynne]

The way fuel prices are going I'm going to get my engine to run on Vodka - at current rates of fuel increases it will cheaper in about 3 years! (One for the car, one for me, one for the car, one fur me, Won fur caaaar, wun fffuuurrr me. )