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Tyre Shaving - Any Good?

Discussion in 'Motorsports' started by T9 man, 27 April 2011.

  1. T9 man

    T9 man TC Pro Founder Moderator

    Messages:
    20,370
    From:
    London, UK
    Car:
    Saab 9-3SS T9
    Just been looking on the Demon Tweeks site for a few additionals for the Beast, when I came across a piece on Tyre Shaving - and I quote!

    TYRE SHAVING – The best kept secret to gaining a performance edge. A technique developed from racing but equally applicable for track day users. Rather than buffing the tread off new tyres which introduces unwanted heat into the tyre carcass we literally shave the tread to the desired depth avoiding the heat issue, providing a stable base and increased dry weather grip on the track. Call us now to make a booking or for further information. See a tyre shaving video here.

    Is this technique any good? it has now got me thinking! Has anyone had this done to their tyres or know of anyone who has and can either recommend it or dismiss it?

    Thanks for any help! ;)
     
  2. Jakeymd

    Jakeymd The Torque Meister

    Messages:
    1,350
    From:
    Ashbourne
    Car:
    Ford Focus 2.0 TDCi
    Sounds like a waste of money to me. What're you going to go home on after? If i recall you saying you don't have room to keep any spare wheels. Why not just by road legal track tyres like R888s?
     
  3. Jakeymd

    Jakeymd The Torque Meister

    Messages:
    1,350
    From:
    Ashbourne
    Car:
    Ford Focus 2.0 TDCi
    Ruined a perfectly good set of Yokes there? What is the point in this service??
     
  4. HDi fun

    HDi fun TC ModFather

    Messages:
    15,384
    From:
    Buckinghamshire UK
    Car:
    Passat 2.0 TDi
    Ultra high performance tyres will come with less tread than a tyre for 'normal road' usage. Exactly as you say, this reduces the potential heat build up in the tread. Racing slicks for dry use have no tread at all.

    There is a bit of a dichotomy here because racing tyres need to be warmed up to give of their best in terms of grip.

    For road use I'd dismiss this practice totally. For clarity I am speaking purely for me. I am not saying that you, or anyone else, should necessarily dismiss it. I'm just saying that I wouldn't bother for my purposes.

    There's also another strange school of thought to which some subscribe. Just because a slick is better than a treaded tyre for dry race purposes it does not mean that a bald and worn road tyre will outgrip a similar tyre with a good dose of tread, even in the dry. Some seem to think otherwise.

    All tyres are compromised, there are many tradeoffs;- grip against longevity, noise and rolling resistance.

    However, the very best of premium branded road tyres (and many midrange ones as well) offer a very impressive mix of abilities.

    If you need a race tyre for the track then buy one designed as such and take it as it stands. It's been designed to work with that amount of tread.

    On the road you'd have to drive absolutely brutally to overheat a W/Y/Z rated performance tyre. Shaving off the tread is simply wasteful in my opinion.
     
  5. T9 man

    T9 man TC Pro Founder Moderator

    Messages:
    20,370
    From:
    London, UK
    Car:
    Saab 9-3SS T9
    And this is precisely why Jakeymd; someone who does not know the answer - asks the question! ;)
     
  6. T9 man

    T9 man TC Pro Founder Moderator

    Messages:
    20,370
    From:
    London, UK
    Car:
    Saab 9-3SS T9
    @ HDi, Thank you kindly :) having read your deliberations on the subject, I now understand this system process much better now! Never heard of this type of tyre enhancement before - for want of a better phrase! so I submit the question to my TC peers to help prevent me from making any silly costly mistakes! ;)
     
  7. HDi fun

    HDi fun TC ModFather

    Messages:
    15,384
    From:
    Buckinghamshire UK
    Car:
    Passat 2.0 TDi
    The only possible (and I'm clutching at very slippery straw here) marginal benefit is it that if you were to be lumbered with a very very very cheaply made tyre which simply refuses to balance correctly. Shaving tread to make it uniformly round might, and only just might, help the situation.

    But if a tyre is so poorly made that it's not even geometrically circular with no load placed upon it then we'd have to question the general construction quality, anyway.

    I suspect most of us would elect to not drive on the thing at all.

    I know you've not asked for recommendations but I will suggest that you consider Bridgestone's Potenza range for road driving. More accurately I'm saying that they certainly shouldn't be dismissed.
     
    Last edited: 27 April 2011
  8. T9 man

    T9 man TC Pro Founder Moderator

    Messages:
    20,370
    From:
    London, UK
    Car:
    Saab 9-3SS T9
    I will throw this model range into the mix as well as the Toyo T1 R's when the time comes! Tyre choices are never easy, have had the car 8 years now and 8 different tyre combinations! One day I will find a set that I am happy with.
     
  9. HDi fun

    HDi fun TC ModFather

    Messages:
    15,384
    From:
    Buckinghamshire UK
    Car:
    Passat 2.0 TDi
    You won't ever be totally happy with any one set of tyres, simply because tyre design and technology is always based upon a set of compromises.

    Bridgestone's Potenza range is quite extensive. There are many different model for different applications; for different driver profiles, habits, likes, wants and needs. Even with a specific size there's probably 3 or 4 different Potenza models to consider alone.
     
  10. old-git

    old-git Moderator

    Messages:
    9,147
    From:
    Essex
    Car:
    Elan & Robin Hood
    One of the reasons radial racing slicks are so effective is because they feature shallow tread depths and their contact patch acts as a single unit.

    However, any tread design breaks up the contact patch into smaller elements and additional deep tread depth (required to enhance wet traction) allows tread block squirm which will reduce dry performance. This means that tyres typically provide their worst wet traction, and their best dry performance, just before they wear out.

    However, its also important to remember that the heat generated every time a tyre is driven activates bonding agents in the rubber. As this process is repeated continually throughout the tyre's life, its rubber compounds gradually harden and lose flexibility reducing the tyre's grip.

    Therefore, a shaved "new" tyre will provide more traction than a tyre worn to the exact same tread depth after being driven for thousands of miles on the road.

    This practice is popular with serious racers who are after optimum performace immediately. The improvement is small but noticable. Useful in racing situations but of dubious use for track days.
     
  11. HDi fun

    HDi fun TC ModFather

    Messages:
    15,384
    From:
    Buckinghamshire UK
    Car:
    Passat 2.0 TDi
    But surely if 'they' [serious racers] are buying tyres for serious track racing applications they'd buy tyres specifically for that purpose. Such tyres would be compromised for road use at best, inadequate at worst.

    'Shaving' rubber from the tread of the tyre is surely an even greater compromise than buying tyres for the purpose for which they're going to be deployed and then not using them for the purpose thus intended.

    A severely worn and nearly slick road tyre is not going to give of its best even in dry conditions. It was never designed to be that worn and is not to be driven upon in that condition. It was designed to work with tread. It's not just tread that wears, is it? As you state the rubber compound changes chemically during its life.

    OG - I'd really expect better from you.
     
    Last edited: 28 April 2011
  12. old-git

    old-git Moderator

    Messages:
    9,147
    From:
    Essex
    Car:
    Elan & Robin Hood
    Tyre shaving is an effective means of permitting more of a tyre's performance capability to be realized early in its life. Tyre shaving removes tread rubber and reduces tyre weight by several pounds. The resulting shallower tread depths reduce the tyre's slip angle, increases its responsiveness and helps stabilize its cornering power by minimizing tread block squirm. Minimizing tread block squirm also reduces heat buildup and the risk of making the tyre go "off" by overheating its tread compound. And, in many cases, shaved tyres used in competition actually have a longer useful life than tyres that begin being run at full tread depth.

    Most race series specify the tyre to be used. Where this tyre has to be DOT approved, shaving is almost a requirment if you want to be competative. This process has been going on for years. Buffing was the original method but this produced too much heat (a lot more heat than produced by actual racing) so shaving was developed.

    Most Ultra High Performance Summer tyres begin with 10/32" of starting tread depth. Experience has shown that shaving them to about 6/32" will provide a noticeable improvement and is a good starting point. A tyre shaved to about 4/32" will further enhance performance but reduce its useful life.

    Nitto 555Rs come with only 6/32" of tread so. if you are allowed to use these, there is no need to shave :)

    http://www.nittotire.com/index.html#index.tire.nt555r


    As you say HD, you are coming from a road users perspective, not a racer's.
     
    Last edited: 28 April 2011
  13. SLEEPER

    SLEEPER Pro Tuner

    Messages:
    2,781
    Interesting thread

    IMHO

    There are a lot of "improvements" that may work on the track for serious competitors that are a complete waste of time for road use.
    I think that this may well be one.

    I know nothing of this practice and I have been to a fair few track days and also helped out in the pits of a number of the time attack guys and nobody has mentioned this subject even in the ongoing "whats the best tyre debate" which we seem to have all the time

    As has already been said tyres are now very specific and that I think is the point

    For examle I know that for my driving style Toyo 888s are the best tyre for grip in the dry by a mile for my Stagea and the GTR but I dont use them .
    This is because although I try not to go out in the wet in can and does happen .
    888s are rubbish in the wet so I use goodyear F1s because thats the best balance for me as Id rather have a car thats driveable in all conditions.
    (note - I dont mean they are the best I mean I like them the most- If someone else prefers brand xyz thats what they should use)

    So my thought would be dont bother with this . It costs (obviously) and your tyre life is cut down so you spend £s twice.

    If you are that serious get a second set of wheels with 888s
     
  14. claymore

    claymore The Torque Meister

    Messages:
    1,886
    From:
    Shrewsbury
    Car:
    T-10k,
    We were buffing tyres as long ago as the late 80's for tarmac road rallying, or at worst use part worn tyres, at the time it was known to stear clear of the Goodyear NCT as it had two compounds, a nice sticky soft compound down to about 4mm then a harder compound after that (to make them last a bit longer) but no grip.
     
  15. obi_waynne

    obi_waynne Administrator Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    40,819
    From:
    Deal, Kent UK
    Car:
    A3 1.4 TFSI 150 COD
    If anyone wants this done for free I'm your man. Give me your car with a new set of tyres on it and I'll drive around in my top secret prescribed way to enhance the wear and reduce the tread in a totally natural way. ;)
     
  16. HDi fun

    HDi fun TC ModFather

    Messages:
    15,384
    From:
    Buckinghamshire UK
    Car:
    Passat 2.0 TDi
    OG: "As you say HD, you are coming from a road users perspective, not a racer's.

    Correct. And so is T9Man.

    I fully agree that having too much tread contributes to extra flexing and therefore heat build up within the carcass and rubber compound.

    So therefore buy a tyre for track purposes with the right amount of tread on it in the first place.

    I'm also not keen to promote the idea that a tyre grips best (even in the dry) just before it wears out.

    A worn tyre is not the same a a slick tyre and on the road this is essential.
     
  17. old-git

    old-git Moderator

    Messages:
    9,147
    From:
    Essex
    Car:
    Elan & Robin Hood
    When club racing, tyre life isn't the most important factor, lap times over the course of 20 -40 laps are. Tyres work best when there is minimal tread squirm, hence the shaving of tyres down to around 6/32" tread depth.

    The time attack people obviously aren't looking for every advantage, otherwise they would be looking at shaving. As I mentioned previously, Nitto actually do a competition tyre (NT555R) with a 6/32" tread depth to improve traction, which is a big clue.

    We are not talking big differences here, but in proper multi-lap events, even 1/100th second a lap with speeds avaraging 90mph, adds up to nearly half a second over a 40 lap race equating to approx 60ft advantage over a non-shaved tyre by the end of the race, which is a huge winning margin.

    As I mentioned before, this is purely a racing thing and pointless for road use.
     
  18. old-git

    old-git Moderator

    Messages:
    9,147
    From:
    Essex
    Car:
    Elan & Robin Hood
    If the tyre specified for the race series you are competing in doesn't come with a 6/32" tread depth (I only know of one - Nitto NT555R but there may be others) you have to do it yourself.

    I'm not either, but we are talking racing here and, hopefully, anyone reading this will realise that.

    Maybe this thread should be moved to a racing forum in order to avoid any confusion?
     
  19. old-git

    old-git Moderator

    Messages:
    9,147
    From:
    Essex
    Car:
    Elan & Robin Hood
    My comments are made on the assumption that T9Man is considering tyres for use on the track, is that correct T9?

    However, if their use is only for track day fun, then the tiny time advantages of a shaved tyre are not worth the time, effort and cost.

    If the tyre specified for the race series you are competing in doesn't come with a 6/32" tread depth (I only know of one - Nitto NT555R but there may be others) you have to do it yourself.

    I'm not saying that tyres having very little tread are good either, but we are talking racing here and, hopefully, anyone reading this will realise that.

    6/32" is 4.76mm.

    Agreed, slicks have a different carcass construction and use different rubber compounds to DOT tyres. A road tyre devoid of any tread is almost down to steel wire and very dangerous, even in the dry.

    Maybe this thread should be moved to a racing forum in order to avoid any confusion?
     
  20. obi_waynne

    obi_waynne Administrator Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    40,819
    From:
    Deal, Kent UK
    Car:
    A3 1.4 TFSI 150 COD
    Thread moved to the motorsport forum.
     
  21. T9 man

    T9 man TC Pro Founder Moderator

    Messages:
    20,370
    From:
    London, UK
    Car:
    Saab 9-3SS T9
    I was not actually thinking anything in particular about this type of tyre technique! I was merely looking for shiny bits and pieces to buy on the Demon Tweeks site for my new engine, when I happened upon this article. ;)

    I have never heard of 'Tyre Shaving' before and after watching the video, this got me thinking if this would be actually any good for me?

    So I asked the question on a subject in which I know nothing about; is it or isn't it, any good?

    Yes I am currently looking out for some Ultra High Performance tyres, which I can use in both wet and dry conditions in readiness for the huge power hike in my cars engine.

    I am currently evaluating a set of tyres (200 miles driven on them from new) made by a company called Neuton and the model in question is an NT5000. These were free to me, so they represent no loss should the 'Tyre Shaving' system had proved to be of worth if I had applied this to my own tyres!
    But the system does seems very radical; which is why I asked the question to seek guidance from those here on TC more knowledgable on this subject matter than I :)
     
  22. HDi fun

    HDi fun TC ModFather

    Messages:
    15,384
    From:
    Buckinghamshire UK
    Car:
    Passat 2.0 TDi
    "Maybe this thread should be moved to a racing forum in order to avoid any confusion?"

    There isn't any confusion. T9 hasn't mentioned competition use.
     
  23. Yugguy

    Yugguy Torque King

    Messages:
    4,786
    From:
    Rugby (expat Preston lad)
    Car:
    Merc C220Cdi Elegan
    Sounds like something useful on track but also shortly to be seen on countless chav Corsas so they can brag in Maccy Ds car park about "shavin tyres, innit".
     
  24. HDi fun

    HDi fun TC ModFather

    Messages:
    15,384
    From:
    Buckinghamshire UK
    Car:
    Passat 2.0 TDi
    Fitting 145/70's to 10" wide rims. Shaved 'n' stretched.
     
  25. old-git

    old-git Moderator

    Messages:
    9,147
    From:
    Essex
    Car:
    Elan & Robin Hood
    Good point. I assumed as he was asking about shaving as he was planning to do some track days.
     

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