Are new cars better than classics

[charger69]

Likewise my Elan. had it over 30 years already! Other cars I drive (other than the Robin Hood) are just a means of transportation so can be anything. Modern cars are so good now, compared to 20-30 years ago, that I don't care what I drive. If you ignore the One Make jealots and the odd bad experience, all cars are much of a muchness when driven like an old man wearing a hat and smoking a pipe

i don't agree that modern cars are better.

 

[pgarner]

copied to a new thread charger rather than attack the original.

can you explain, why you think older cars are better ?

 

[old-git]

Re: What is your next car likely to be

i don't agree that modern cars are better.

Depends on your definition of 'better'

By better, I meant that the engines are far more reliable, the seats are more comfortable, the air conditioning works, they handle and stop better, less liable to rust, rarely overheat, crashes are more survivable, etc, etc. I was referring to the sort of cars that normal people (like us) could then and can now afford.

I am guessing that your definition of better is more to do with style, power and nostalgia - And I am with you there as well.

Correct me if I am wrong, I won't get upset

 

[HDi fun]

Re: What is your next car likely to be

Modern cars do serve their purposes brilliantly. In general they're reliable, safe and easy to drive. And modern dishwashers are reliable and safe.

When's the last time you required your dishwasher to be fun? Convenient and practical, yes! Fun, probably not!

Old cars can be fun. Possibly moreso when you're in no hurry to get anywhere because the joy of driving such a machine is the objective.

But, for A-B with time constraints the modern C size metal box is hard to challenge.

 

[prevtec]

i think that old cars are put together better than new 1s, apart from the safety aspect though

 

[charger69]

Re: What is your next car likely to be

Depends on your definition of 'better'

By better, I meant that the engines are far more reliable, the seats are more comfortable, the air conditioning works, they handle and stop better, less liable to rust, rarely overheat, crashes are more survivable, etc, etc. I was referring to the sort of cars that normal people (like us) could then and can now afford.

I am guessing that your definition of better is more to do with style, power and nostalgia - And I am with you there as well.

Correct me if I am wrong, I won't get upset

power and nostalgia, yeah. dunno, but there are things that i don't like at new carslike ASB, ESP systems. they're all worthless by my opinion. the good thing at new cars is the gas usage controlled by computers or electronicly, also good thing on new cars is more power and the way the take out that power. but talking for chasis of new car and old car, old cars are unique, these new cars are just plastic toys.

 

[charger69]

old car could handle more, and their bodys are better, do you know what would be the ideal car? the engine of a new car putted in a old car, this would be the best. i agree new cars have better engines, but old ones have better bodies and they are way more safe than new cars, those airbags and stuff are all worthless.
an accident that happened in my country before a while between a 1968 opel rekord and a citroen c3 pluriel was like this: the people in the citroen we're all dead, while those in the opel survived, and the opel wasn't that damaged as the citroen, the citroen was that much damaged, that u wouldn't even recognise it what car it was.

 

[pgarner]

in agree with charger older cars have more character than newer cars, however newer cars are better build in most cases, better functunality and of course better and engines.

charger if i went out and bought something that was built to take a heavy impact such as an old car and put it up against the newer cars that have all the crumple zones then the newer one is not going to come out of it, which i do think is better as too many try to repair a car thats been badly damaged.
However if it had been 2 old cars that were strongly built then i would hae said any occuants would have walk away

 

[HDi fun]

Nostaglia is taking over here. Modern cars don't rust. They don't need weekly under bonnet attention. They don't need enigne rebuilds every 10,000 miles.

Crash safety is immensely better than old cars. Crash avoidance and stability is far superior.

Performance is generally better, although older cars are usually LIGHTER (yes, you heard it here first!) than modern ones so require less power to make 'em go nicely.

 

[herb]

well the only way i can honestly say classic is better than modern is the fact that they are better to look at, they are easier to work on, and they are not a common sight on the road so get more respect of a car enthusiast than your every day mundane focus ever will

i would love to argue your corner charger69 cause i prefer classic to modern but its a loosing battle mate you cant argue the facts that have been said already sorry

 

[HDi fun]

Classics are brilliant to work on. I'm not a great mechanic but I remember fondly the days when you could climb into the engine bay whilst the engine was still in there. Changing plugs took about ten minutes on a 4 cylinder engine. Some modern FWD v6 engines require removal of the intake mainfold to replace the three on the rear bank. But the plug change interval is often 80,000 miles or more, so there is a tradeoff there too. Taking this further, a set of 6 plugs of that type can cost over seventy quid!

 

[herb]

Classics are brilliant to work on. I'm not a great mechanic but I remember fondly the days when you could climb into the engine bay whilst the engine was still in there. Changing plugs took about ten minutes on a 4 cylinder engine. Some modern FWD v6 engines require removal of the intake mainfold to replace the three on the rear bank. But the plug change interval is often 80,000 miles or more, so there is a tradeoff there too. Taking this further, a set of 6 plugs of that type can cost over seventy quid!

there is also see a major downside of taking a manifold off every 80,000+ miles nut threading or snapping if your a diy mechanic this has happened to me with less than 80k on a manifold

 

[HDi fun]

I agree. It's ridiculous to have to do this. Much like removing the front bumper of a current Golf to simply replace a fog light lamp (which is the correct term for bulb). In, current Fiesta - reare light cluster. Lamp replacement requires Torx (R) wrenches.

 

[herb]

I agree. It's ridiculous to have to do this. Much like removing the front bumper of a current Golf to simply replace a fog light lamp (which is the correct term for bulb). In, current Fiesta - reare light cluster. Lamp replacement requires Torx (R) wrenches.

same as my car mate if i want to remove my head lights its a bumper off job and thats just a joke why would you need a tool to change a rear bulb most cars even modern its only clips !!
i see another plus here for classics the manufacturer never purposely made it difficult for the diy'er unlike modern cars

 

[HDi fun]

Vauxhall was, to my mind, quite subversive with the early MkI Vectra's with the fitment of a fibre tensioner gear in the cambelt drive assembly. Notorious for failure thus leaving owners with a massive invoice for rebuilding an engine after the gear collapsed and left the cambelt in free air.

Has it done the brand any favours? NO.

By devaluing the trade-in price as a result Vauxhall has had to discount its new cars simply to keep its existing customer base.

In some ways the DIYer will be left behind with good reason. We all demand more from our cars: power, drivability, comfort and so on. But we don't want to spend any more at purchase.

 

[obi_waynne]

Im veering towards the classics but I think I will always have rose tinted glasses in this. With older cars you needed to mess around with the carbs for hours to get them right, you had to clean and set the points. These jobs usually lasted a month or so then you needed to do them again!

Old cars certainly have a lot of character but I'm all for the modern versions of classics such as the beetle and mini. I just wish Lancia would redo the Stratos and what about a modern version of the Stag?

As HDI says older cars were lighter. They didn't have all the crumple zones, impact beams and safety features. My 220GTi was about 200kgs lighter than my current A3.

 

[HDi fun]

My Montegos both weighed in at just onder a ton. Yet people describe tham as being built like tanks!

The 406 (which people describe as flimsy French) weighs over 31cwt.

 

[Massive]

to be honest i like cars around 95-99, all the new cars sound like they are powered by C batteries, there is no nice engine rumble, just the sound of an aircraft takin off, plus older cars seem to have more potential for styling and tuning, they tend to be a good project, where as a new car you wouldnt want to do anything to it, to stop it loosin even more value

 

[prevtec]

to be honest i like cars around 95-99, all the new cars sound like they are powered by C batteries, there is no nice engine rumble, just the sound of an aircraft takin off, plus older cars seem to have more potential for styling and tuning, they tend to be a good project, where as a new car you wouldnt want to do anything to it, to stop it loosin even more value

spot on, get a car that wont depreciate in value anymore and then do it up
i think people like classic cars more because the age of them
quote, (my grandad to his wife) that car was around when i was getting the tit of you, ahh, happy days
ha ha

 

[Wcnwzrd]

personally i will take older cars any day. true they don't have the crumple zone and all that, but personally i don't like most of the modern day features. the constant dinging of the keys in ignition warning and so forth, gets annoying when you are trying to get to something under the dash that has to have power but you can't reach unless the door is open and you half hang out of it.

not to mention, in my Willys (1954 Willys Pickup) I hit a patch of ice coming around a corner, slid through, was lucky enough not to get hit by oncoming traffic as i crossed its lane, and ran smack dab into a tree at 30 MPH. The tree had more damage than my truck.

My wifes pontiac, she crunched a shopping cart between her back bumper and a wall, totaled the bumper and passenger rear fender. I can't stand airbags either, those things can cause burns when they come out, (got a pretty nice one on my arm when some dufus ran into me on the freeway.)

Crumple zones absorb the impact but a properly worn and working seatbelt will keep you from hitting most objects anyways. not to mention even when they were new the older cars were a heck of alot easier and cheaper to work on.

no specialty tools unless you were doing a major overhaul. even the electronics took no more than a voltmeter and signal light.

 

[turbonutter69]

My opinion is that newer cars offer more comfort and reliability but older cars offer more feel to driving. I personally like the fiesta xr2 with no P/S or Abs. I like it because you feel the road beneath you an you feel everything through the steering wheel. Alot of new cars take this away. But I really do like the xr2...

 

[HDi fun]

Your Primera will flatten an early XR2 in a straight line and on the twisty stuff.

 

[turbonutter69]

Your Primera will flatten an early XR2 in a straight line and on the twisty stuff.

I know but I really like the feel you get from driving an XR2. What I mean is you get more of a feel for the road in an XR2 with No Power steering and No ABS. I know my car would be miles faster than an XR2 but I really like that feeling of being in total control of the car without electronics. I'd take my primear anyday for performance and comfort but driving an XR2 without all the refinements and electronics is exciting and fun. It's just opinion and yes I would choose a newer car over an old one anyday but I do still like the real feel of driving you get from an old car.

 

[HDi fun]

I can see what you're swiping at. And I acknowledge your opinion. Many would agree. Rightly so. It's just me that begs to differ. I don't like the feel that the 96-01 Passats had, for example. Totally detatched from the road, yet still capable cars. Volvo's FWD cars are similar. PAS does not necessarily detatch you from the road, it's just a different feel. P11's have speed sensitive PAS - in my opinion it works well - you can still feel the road pretty well but if you grip the wheel with clenched fists it won't work.

I grew up on RWD Fords and FWD Fiats - these all had far less road feel then just about any modern car.

 

[turbonutter69]

I understand what you mean. It's just me I guess I like the race car feel. An I do like a car with no power steering. I think I like it cause it's more involving. I mean in my Primera if I have to brake heavy a just jam the brakes on an let the electronics do the work. But if I was in an XR2 I'd vbe more involved in stopping it.It's just my opinion. I may be pretty young but I do like old school cars.

 

[HDi fun]

Most race cars have PAS. I have a business client who's in the rally car prep business. They fit coolers for PAS systems on Imprezas.

Cars with assisted everything can still be very involving. It's only when you get outside of the safety envelope that these passive safety systems relieve the driver of control. THey also relinquish such control and hand it back to the driver immediately the situation is dealt with.

I suppose the trick is drive in such a way that the ESP and all other control systems never notice that you're pushing it a bit too hard.

 

[prevtec]

pas has to be in race cars, you cant drive fast with ps, its too light and dangerous
i think thats why they have it in the 1st place

some cars have light pas, my prelude had it, but bought a smaller steering wheel for it
i have the benifit of having light steering but feel every bit of the road through it
well worth a 130 euro

you should keep that in mind nutter, get a car with pas, but change to a smaller steering wheel, trust me, it works

 

[prevtec]

Most race cars have PAS. I have a business client who's in the rally car prep business. They fit coolers for PAS systems on Imprezas.

Cars with assisted everything can still be very involving. It's only when you get outside of the safety envelope that these passive safety systems relieve the driver of control. THey also relinquish such control and hand it back to the driver immediately the situation is dealt with.

I suppose the trick is drive in such a way that the ESP and all other control systems never notice that you're pushing it a bit too hard.

it would be handy if you could turn these aids off though
like new ferraris theres a switch to turn everything off

these aids dont suit everyone so they should have a choice

how are you anyway mate??

 

[turbonutter69]

I just like the raw feel what an Xr2 gives. Low to the ground feel every bump in the road. That sort of thing. I do like my primera for comfort but if I didn't have my son I'd be in an Xr2. I think they are spot on little motors if a little slow nowadays....

 

[HDi fun]

Renault 5 GT Turbo does the job properly. And they really do go.

 

[turbonutter69]

Renault 5 GT Turbo does the job properly. And they really do go.

I know but i'd be forever rebuilding it. They tend to blow up alot. An they do really blow up most of the time. I'd have the Fiesta Rs Turbo. I used to have one and it was tuned to the max before I bought it. It had stage 3 everything and the dyno read out for 280bhp proven at the wheels. It was about 350bhp at the flywheel. It was awesome really stuck to road. Wish i'd never sold it.

 

[billyo]

Why did you sell it then turbonutter69.

 

[turbonutter69]

Why did you sell it then turbonutter69.

Funds at the time mate. Was sad to see it go but just couldn't afford to run it. With that much power it needed so much attention all the time. It was an awesome car an this was 6 or 7 years ago. If it would of been built to todays technology it prob would have been alot more reliable. It had a Sierra Rs500 Actuator and it snapped it! The dump valve had to be welded to the intake manifold cause it just kept blowing off!.

 

[HDi fun]

The Fiesta RS was a piece of junk in my opinion. They weren't that quick evan at launch time against the competition. What's the attraction? Fords in that era were undesireable really. Even I would have bought a Vauxhall in preference if there was no other choice.

Is nostalgia creeping in. Perhaps that's why I regarded my MG Montego highly? But there's no way I'd want to drive it now.

 

[turbonutter69]

The reason I like the Fiesta Turbo is the raw feeling you get from driving it. Again No power steering or ABS. And mine went like stink. It would of easily beat a scoob on acceleration. It really was that fast...

 

[HDi fun]

I'll have to take your word on that one. It may have been raw, and I agree with you that the driving feel was raw. But there were loads of cars available at that point in time that were better prospects over the Ford XR or RS badged ones.

I accept totally that you liked the Fiesta RS, you are more than entitled to your opinion and I wll defend your right to hold that opinion.

If I had to choose a car from that era as a raw driving hatch I think I'd plump for the Astra GTE 16v. That didn't float my boat either but it was brutal and the fun (if you call it that) was keeping in in check at three figure speeds when the whole lot felt it was going skyward.

Did you ever get to drive the Nissan Sunny Europe (which was a cross continental Alfa/Nissan effort)?

On a bigger scale - early 1990's saw the Cosworth Engined Ford Granada Scorpio with 210bhp - all sent to the the rear wheels. And with opulence and comfort built in.

 

[turbonutter69]

I'll have to take your word on that one. It may have been raw, and I agree with you that the driving feel was raw. But there were loads of cars available at that point in time that were better prospects over the Ford XR or RS badged ones.

I accept totally that you liked the Fiesta RS, you are more than entitled to your opinion and I wll defend your right to hold that opinion.

If I had to choose a car from that era as a raw driving hatch I think I'd plump for the Astra GTE 16v. That didn't float my boat either but it was brutal and the fun (if you call it that) was keeping in in check at three figure speeds when the whole lot felt it was going skyward.

Did you ever get to drive the Nissan Sunny Europe (which was a cross continental Alfa/Nissan effort)?

On a bigger scale - early 1990's saw the Cosworth Engined Ford Granada Scorpio with 210bhp - all sent to the the rear wheels. And with opulence and comfort built in.

I use to have a granada cosworth an your right it was comfort an speed.
I also liked the 205 Gti again with No power steering but it gripped to the road like nothing else and is very fun to drive.

 

[HDi fun]

205 GTi - they are fun, 1.9 was a beast. Never let off with your right foot in a bend. Unless of course you fancy some serious steering work.

Good call, fella.

Rgds,

P.

 

[turbonutter69]

205 GTi - they are fun, 1.9 was a beast. Never let off with your right foot in a bend. Unless of course you fancy some serious steering work.

Good call, fella.

Rgds,

P.

The 1.9 was a beast and it just begs to be punished. They are unbelievably quick. I once had a Vectra sri and once when was on a motorway I had a race with a 1.9Gti and it kept up with me untill about 120 then after that I started to pull away. But they are proper quick and have the handling match..... Great little cars....

 

[HDi fun]

They're bloody flimsy the 80's Pugs. Which is odd becuase my 406 is built like a brick s..thouse