Cornering discussion.

obi_waynne

obi_waynne

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A3 1.4 TFSI 150 COD
When you are out for a fun drive how do you corner? I prefer a trailing throttle and if the road is clearly empty I will move over and take a "racing line" safely using up the full width of the road. Am I alone here?

Does anyone power though corners?

I know that rule 1 is never to brake on a corner but this rule seems obsolete with the arrival of ABS brakes. (Old habits die hard though!)
 
im normally use a better line than what the corner might give. this is the first car with ABS so i never brake in the corner unless the idiot in front of me does :evil:

i cant power through the corner as its FWD i would just understeer :???:
 
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Yeah taking the racing line mmmmm....

better be careful about who's behind you or Mad Max the Highway Sheriff will have you stopped at the road side faster than you can say ABS.

Personally I'd save the racing line for the race track, that's why they call it the racing line after all :wink:

Personally I've found the best compromise in a FWD'er is brake as late as you feel comfortable with in order to carry as much speed as you feel comfortable with obviously as your on the road give yourself some margin for error or idiots.

Then as you enter the bend feet off the pedals on the initial turn in if the tyres bite start to input the throttle until a) the tyres squeal b) your steering wheel lightens a touch as your on the verge of oversteering (I've found this to be the case driving a corsa an clio and a golf don't know if it works for anyone else tho)

obv. the tyre squeal gives you a better indication but they aint gonna squeal when its wet!
 
This is a very abstract discussion really. No two corners, cars, drivers and situations are the same on the road. Things aren't repeatable as they are on a track.

Having said that, I adopt many different stances and methods depending upon the situation and how I want to drive at that time. I will never select a driving style that is likely to cause danger.

The racing line doesn't really help on the road too much as the change of corner radius is often sudden and unsubtle. Throw in camber changes as well and things can get difficult. Poor road surfaces don't help either.

You're also compromised on vision. On a track there are no hedges and other roadside features to block your vision. And generally there's nothing coming towards you in the opposite direction either.

As for ABS alone, it's not going to dig you out of anything and everything. It's an emergency device, which works well to try and make the most of the available grip. If you drive 'on it' you'll end up slower through bends anyway.

There's all manner of other grip 'maximising' systems fitted to cars. Again, they're there to help you out in a tight spot. Not to enable you to go fast on the road.

All this makes me sound like a doddery old git who:

1: never goes over 2500rpm, and,

2: always corners at 'horse drawn cart' speeds.

Guess what?

1. I do, and;

2. I don't.
 
This also raises a question - is it illegal to make full use of the width of the road if it SAFE to do so? I would have thought the racing line is only a problem if you are using illegal racing speeds?

I would rather go quickly through a series of bends than flat out on a straight bit of track. It is really cornering which makes the difference between a good driver and a bad driver.

You need to sense the balance of the car and keep it smooth. HDi is right that no two bends are alike but there are certain procedures which apply in all types of corner.

Observation, Set speed, trailing throttle, apex direction adjustment and exit.

I read in an advanced driving manual that it is safer to turn a corner into a series of short straights. Anyone else subscribe to this theory?
 
Its not illegal per se to cross the broken lines however check out rule 106 of the highway code ok so mine is the '04 edition and could be considered out of date.

Nevertheless:

106: A broken white line. This marks the centre of the road. When the line lengthens and the gaps shorten, it means there is a hazard ahead. Do not cross it unless you can see the road is clear well ahead and wish to overtake or turn off.

Also imagine this if you will

Officer: I'm going to caution you now. You do not have to say anything, but anything you do say may be given in evidence in a court of law. Why were you weaving across the road back there?

Driver: I haven't done anything wrong, I was using the racing line...

Officer (interrupts): does this look like a race track to you Jenson? do you know how many people have been killed on this section of road? etc etc

so if you do decide to use the "line" then keep your eyes :shock: cause if maybe the two guys in the blue 3.0 V6 Omega behind you are :evil:.

I'm not trying to tell any one how to driver their car. I'm just presenting the facts with a bit of worst case scenario. It's up to you all to decide for yourselfs;).
 
You won't get stopped, never mind cautioned for making use of the available road for vision and vehicle stability. Go and undertake a couple of day's instruction from a Class 1 Police Driving Instructor. (www.ridedrive.co.uk) It's very informative, especially when it comes to the law and its application.

Traffic police are generally very measured and sensible when it comes to such issues. OK, if you're doing 105 in a 60 limit they'd almost have to query it and report you if there's enough evidence to do so.

The police driving the smaller cars can be a bit silly at times. But they have minimal knowledge of traffic law so you're unlikely to incur much more than a bollocking.
 
It depends on the car. I had a Honda Prelude which was beautifully balanced and you could do what you liked. If it was blind, it would have been stupid to power through as if no-one was there. So you could go round on a neutral throttle. Then I bought a BMW 1.8ti which was just before they put rear suspension on. It was the model with the 1960s swing axle layout. You simply had to power through to make the car sit. It was useless for modern roads because it didn't allow for sudden changes in scenery (like another car).
I've no doubt their current set-up is good (it looks good).

But you can brake on a corner, not just because of ABS. The old cadence braking, jabbing to throw the load onto the front outside (for the bend) wheel, works when needed. In fact, it's approximately what the modern slide controls do.

But now I'm too old for any of that.

Malc
 
ESP systems generally rely on brakes as they're by far the easiest to modulate wheel by wheel using existing ABS actuators. They are still only provided as a dig you out of the brown stuff feature. They shouldn't be used in everyday driving. and, shouldn't be needed for most of the time either.

If anyone's invoking them regularly then either the car has a mechanical fault; a software problem; or the driver is not driving optimally.

Having said that, they do work very well indeed, but their automatic engagement should warn the driver that they need to re-evaulate their driving method at the point of engagement.
 
You're never too old Malc! The EVO shows what is techonologically possible and gives much more corner grip than the laws of physics dictate. I agree with HDI that ABS is only for emergencies and should not be relied on in general driving.

Malc - were you saying to brake in a corner or to brake to set the car up for a corner?
 
Never too old? Kind of you to say so!

Wot I ment woz: wrt Braking,

If I was on a clear road, trying to go fast, I would brake firmly if needed, in a straight line. The line stopped as I began to turn in. I tended to open the throttle instantly after that. How much throttle, and when, depended on the bend. As others have said.

But with modern road conditions, (Murphy's second law is: if something might pull out, it will pull out), I became happier with a neutral car that wouldn't go weird if I backed off on the throttle in mid-flight, so to speak.
So on a slippy road, for example, I would either tippy-toe round, doing as little as poss - but other times, if I thought I was too fast, I would brake on the corner but only for an instant. As you know, this loads the front wheel but instead of starting a skid, because I've un-braked, it digs in, adding to front cornering force (good). That's all. I'm pretty normal I think generally with my driving - except I marvel at people who seem to drive geometrically round, trusting technology, regardless of road surface.
eg it snowed today where I live.

All ze best Malc :shock:
 
I've seen some shockers in the snow. We had a massive 1cm of snow recently and on one stretch of main road there were 2 cars who had lost it on bends and come off the road ;) 4 wheel drive traction is brilliant in the snow - the brakes however are still subject to the laws of physics!
 
The whole country grinds to a halt when it snows too. Heading to 6th form when I was younger with L stickers on with my Dad in the car. Heavy snow and the roads hadn't been gritted so the conditions were really shocking. I was in my parents trusty old Fester (the 1.25 Zetec engine, not zetec body) and going up this hill and sailed by this women in a Beemer. She wasn't getting anywhere cos when she slipped she just floored it. The look on her face was priceless. (Ignoring the fact that FWD are slightly better in the snow than RWD)

As for cornering, I've always done the old Brake, maintain speed in corner then accelerate out. ABS I have never been a fan of. Sure, it can on the whole help you in the wet but generally, if you need to use it, you haven't been paying enough attention to the road or are driving dangerously. I've used it before in my parents old car, but that was when I was going through the "I've passed my test, now I can drive like a ****" stage. Didn't have the experience then. Haven't had to do an "emergency stop" in over 2 years I reckon.

Oh, and in the snow ABS is just frankly dangerous. You need the wheels to lock then it digs down into the snow and stops you. But then i'm not a fan of driving aids.

Dave
 
why does the country grind to a halt over half an inch of snow ?. up here we just get on with it and look at Hansi over there ( granted running on 44 inch tyres you aint going to notice much ) . 2 year ago i was driving over 4inch of snow with not much of a problem, other than getting the car out the car park ( fresh snow but had drifted to about 8 inches )
 
Nearly all of it is 'do-able'. I agree that ABS on loose snow can be a bit of a problem, but then, slow down soon enough and it'll be OK. As for braking on bends, yes, you can use sudden and short jabs to adjust the car's attitude but the one thing you can't do is apply all four brakes independently.

Hence the reason for keeping things balanced and neutral from the start.

In an emergency the electronics will certainly do a better job than the driver who's lost control (of course they would, because the driver wouldn't have lost control if his skills were deployed properly).

But relying upon these systems is silly, it's just using up the extra margin of safety on offer.
 
One thing about ABS too, is that it isn't actually the most efficient way of braking. You can outbrake an ABS system by braking just on the limit of slipping, the only thing is, how many drivers can do that in an emergency, most slam on and hope for the best.

As for why we struggle with snow, I have no idea. I have no trouble myself, I guess some ppl have never been taught how to drive.

Dave
 
Maybe we don't get enough practice in snow. In Sweden pretty much every driver has snow chains and the local authority have massive snow clearing lorries.

I got stuck once in a drift and it was the lorry drivers who lost traction causing the bottlenecks. Most of the car drivers were ok, at least whilst things were moving. There are always a few that drive too quick and then lose control.

I would have thought that a modern ABS could respond to lost grip much more quickly than most drivers, but I do completely agree that ABS is a pain in the Snow.
 
I think you've hit the proverial nail DL.

ABS is not the most effective way of braking, but it does help in the panic stop situations when you slam pedal down hard as possible.

The only problem with non-ABS cars is that your boot can only control the four brakes simultaneously. At least ABS only acts on the wheels with a slip problem.

Also, most ABS cars in the last 10 years or so have the brake force distribution controlled electronically so that it can direct the hydraulic proportionally to all 4 wheels to maximise braking before any one wheel locks out.

Even stranger is that the manufacturers fit an emergency brake assist system to compensate for people who don't brake hard enough and soon enough! Clearly, without ABS this would be dangerous.

I don't like the brake assist, it can over-nanny things when you just dab the pedal swiftly with a view to wiping off only 10-20mph. It goes into emergency mode and applies everything fully. Which is bloody unfair on the driver behind.

Mine seems to prime itself to react if you suddenly let go of the accelerator and immediately apply the brake.
 
The new merc system actually starts braking for your when you lift off quickly. Its a "safety feature" that you adjust your driving style to. Then when you borrow the wifes car and are in a fast stream of traffic you lift off expecting the car to slow down and nothing happens! If you ask me there are too many gadgets around that a good driver does simply not need. (I did a rant on some of these http://www.torquecars.com/news/car-technology.php a while back)
 
Re ABS, I'm not sure if this helps, but my daughter who's a "reasonable" driver, through her work, had a day at a BMW test track, with instruction.

She enjoyed it enormously, but one of her points was:

(I could be wrong with some details here, but the message is the same) In a medium speed swerving test with the BMW in use, where the trick was swerving and braking to go S-shape round cones, she obeyed the instructor's instructions (not used her instinct) and was fastest of all (mainly blokes).
She said the instructor said, she let the ABS + anti-skid do the job, whereas more experienced drivers tried to cope but weren't getting so near the limit.
In other words, ABS is less than perfect because it's only working intermittently (as you say), but maybe that's what you want when there's some lock on, to avoid an accident.
Of course, tho' it's less than perfect, it might "average' out better. And my daughter I suspect had a car with the anti-skid braking (ie independent for each wheel).

But the car was cleverer than "most people" (who weren't Drivers - capital D) in that one test.

Malc

PS The BMW I used to have had ABS brakes which I only ever used once. One day, in a drizzle on a down-hill bend, I spun completely 180 degrees on oil, lined up the car going backwards using the mirror, and thought, now for the ABS. I can report, they didn't have much effect going backwards on the wrong side of the road, but it didn't matter, as no-one was coming.
You don't believe me, do you? But it's true!
 
malc9141 said:
Re ABS, I'm not sure if this helps, but my daughter who's a "reasonable" driver, through her work, had a day at a BMW test track, with instruction.

She enjoyed it enormously, but one of her points was:

(I could be wrong with some details here, but the message is the same) In a medium speed swerving test with the BMW in use, where the trick was swerving and braking to go S-shape round cones, she obeyed the instructor's instructions (not used her instinct) and was fastest of all (mainly blokes).
She said the instructor said, she let the ABS + anti-skid do the job, whereas more experienced drivers tried to cope but weren't getting so near the limit.
In other words, ABS is less than perfect because it's only working intermittently (as you say), but maybe that's what you want when there's some lock on, to avoid an accident.
Of course, tho' it's less than perfect, it might "average' out better. And my daughter I suspect had a car with the anti-skid braking (ie independent for each wheel).

But the car was cleverer than "most people" (who weren't Drivers - capital D) in that one test.

Malc

PS The BMW I used to have had ABS brakes which I only ever used once. One day, in a drizzle on a down-hill bend, I spun completely 180 degrees on oil, lined up the car going backwards using the mirror, and thought, now for the ABS. I can report, they didn't have much effect going backwards on the wrong side of the road, but it didn't matter, as no-one was coming.
You don't believe me, do you? But it's true!
Click to expand...

Haha, nice. Scary?

My grandad did the same kind of thing down the end of my road - Wound up facing the wrong way on Ice. I've span out 3 times. Twice on two different roundabouts when I got very poor tyres put on the rear of the Civic (but with slightly worn in tyres on the front, so the back was Light and slippy)

And another time down a country road in horrific weather, with horse muck. That time I was plain driving too fast, though.
 
Just about all ABS systems have been wheel by wheel since its introduction. Very rarely, the back wheels were paralleled with a sensor each but only a siamesed actuator between the two. Honda did this with the early 80's Accords. The fronts wheels were still independently braked and modulated.

And Ford had that bloody awful mechanical front wheel only system that was fitted to Escorts in the early 1990's.

ABS, ESP, and all the other safety systems have their place. And that place is not for drivers to go tearing about recklessly.
 
Because I drive at night most of the time (work during the day, and there's a lot less traffic at midnight) and on the country roads, I tend to use all of the road quite a bit. You can see the headlights of a car a mile off and even on blind corners on a road with no street lights when it's dark.
 
waynne said:
When you are out for a fun drive how do you corner? I prefer a trailing throttle and if the road is clearly empty I will move over and take a "racing line" safely using up the full width of the road. Am I alone here?

Does anyone power though corners?

I know that rule 1 is never to brake on a corner but this rule seems obsolete with the arrival of ABS brakes. (Old habits die hard though!)
Click to expand...

If i am not going to fast then i will just ease off the throttle than pin it as im going out of the corner or if im goin fast brake befor the corner and pin it going out of the corner
 
I saw the term "racing line" mentioned. The same practice on an open, public highway is the "path of least resistance" and also known as "apexing". As others have pointed out it is perfectly legal to use the width of the carriageway so long as to do so will not endanger others.

And you should all know by now slow in, fast out! It's perfectly fine to brake on a corner so long as 1. the radius does not tighten and 2. the amount of braking does not increase.

Generally I've got the car down to the speed I want on the straight and my foot goes from the brake to the accelerator as I begin to turn the wheel. Maintain the speed for the first half of the corner, then accelerate as I reach the apex, as, generally speaking the angle on the bend shallows after this point. This is fine in a front wheel drive car. I wouldn't want to do it in an MR2 again where I should have maintained a constant velocity until all the wheels were lined up.
 
All surfaces, corners, cars, tyres, drivers, alignment principles, driven wheels etc. are so different that it's impossible to write a manual on this subject. This is before we consider what else is on the road or adjacent to it. You can't explore a situation holistically without driving it.

What amazes me is that I see so many BR's in Corsa and Clio models who profess to use racing techniques (as if that matters with a 1.4 litre engine!) and then proceed to steer with one hand!!!! Doing so they look as if they've been involved in a waterskiing accident. They haven't, of course, it's just that the laft one is superglued to the gearshift lever.

No one has yet metioned positioning when approaching a corner or bend. Whatever name you give for a deviation from a straight ahead course of travel.
 
HDi fun said:
and then proceed to steer with one hand!!!! Doing so they look as if they've been involved in a waterskiing accident. They haven't, of course, it's just that the laft one is superglued to the gearshift lever.
Click to expand...

of course the do. this is why they manage to spin on a stright piece of road in the dry
 
PG - well said - you do, like I do, wonder how some people get into such embarrasing situations with such consumate ease.

Worrying really, given we share road space with 'em.
 
yeah its worrying ive seen so many cars in the main clios, as these are the new saxos, in the ditch on a straight flat piece of road. whats worrying me more is i should still fit into the category of BR as im under 25 and own a powerful car
 
I put myself in that category too, when I was under 25 (blimey, long time ago!!). Managed to keep things half sensible then, and just about do so now in my dwindling years that are left :)

But you can still find morons on the road that are over twice your age. Not just the doddering pensioner, with whom I have sympathy - he/she doesn't want to drive either, but it's a necessity.

You find some folks who still worship XR3i's at the age of sixty. And drive them like total ****in ****ers as well.

Yet regard me, (and you, even more, being younger) as menaces to society.

Then, they probably have The Sun (notice I don't say read), and still think Radio 1 is well hip...etc.
 
HDi fun said:
I put myself in that category too, when I was under 25 (blimey, long time ago!!). Managed to keep things half sensible then, and just about do so now in my dwindling years that are left :)

But you can still find morons on the road that are over twice your age. Not just the doddering pensioner, with whom I have sympathy - he/she doesn't want to drive either, but it's a necessity.

You find some folks who still worship XR3i's at the age of sixty. And drive them like total ****in ****ers as well.

Yet regard me, (and you, even more, being younger) as menaces to society.

Then, they probably have The Sun (notice I don't say read), and still think Radio 1 is well hip...etc.
Click to expand...


http://youtube.com/watch?v=DpnOqNx3FRE&feature=related

Describe things pretty well eh?

Hahaha.
 
Bends over straights every time and I drive a Sharan Sport (what a difference compared to standard springs).

EVERY BODY is right on this one if you 'enjoyed' the bend(s)....
but heres my take on it..

RULE 1. Vision, vision vision: I've done many a A road, and I like to keep the locals walking down the road alive. Plus ROAD SURFACE & CONDITION. Gravel is as bad as snow remember!!

RULE 2. Set the car up: Read the bend, if you can not see the exit you can not find the apex! so by the time you've found the exit you've passed the apex? yes? no? ok its the bends you take to work every day... Forget racing lines they assume two things, nothing is on your right or on your left on the exit! stay within your lane and limits, turn in as late as possible so that if anything is stopped or walking the balance of the car is loaded when you see it so you can then decide wether to use all the road if possible i.e round a right hand bend you would carry on cornering to pass walkers etc on to the other side of the road assuming there's nothing coming, or straighten then brake. This is also the best method for overtaking a slow car after a bend, you'll find it gives you a sling shot effect. This I think is what somebody was saying about driving bends as straight lines, each bend is more a flick rather than a swoop ?!?

RULE 3. slow is better because you can use the throttle to steer. We've all done it turned in, oh ok then, bends opening up steering wheel the same give it more throttle, or bends closing steering wheel the same give it less throttle.
This steering the car using the throttle is what Sterlin Moss was on about with his infamous quote "... their is nothing better than driving a bend on TEN TENTHS." this is the limit, everything is just right you can make adjustments in the bend without moving the weight about, which causes the insatiability.

RULE 4. Just because you drive the bend every day it's NEVER no NEVER the same.

I play a game with my wife when we're flying on A roads which always stops the thought of going Racing Line blind round a bend and it this...

You take it in turns.
Approaching a bend you say wether you would go "Racing Line" or "Not."
You score a point for surviving the bend if you go "racing line" ie nothing came the other way.
you score a point if you "don't go RL (NOT)" and something comes the other way.
you don't score any points if you go "NOT" and nothing comes the other way.
and you lose COS YOUR DEAD when you go racing line and SOMETHING came the other way. just like in real life.
It's great some times you score 100+ other times, you die a hundred times. But you always live. But remember when you get up to 50 it's only a game!!!!! Never chance your luck for real because it'll be THEIR LUCK that run out the ones coming the other way !!!!

GREAT THREAD. keep 'em coming guys..
 
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