AWD is easier to drive than RWD? Discuss....

[old-git]

Re: Just bought another Cosworth

[I snipped this discussion from another thread as it could become a good debate, let's hope it doesn't descent into an argument though. Other people are allowed to hold different views to yourself, state your case for your opinion rather than attacking the guy with the opposing view. -Waynne ]

For the peeps knocking the rwd Sapphire it handles far better than the 3 door & has non of the pufter 4X4 traits .

Hi Rod

When you know it is obvious, but it still seems daft.

4x4s are for those who can't handle RWD

 

[SLEEPER]

Re: Just bought another Cosworth

Id agree with that up to about 500bhp then Im all for AWD

 

[old-git]

Re: Just bought another Cosworth

Id agree with that up to about 500bhp then Im all for AWD

How many AWD Funny Cars are there?

 

[jarrus]

Re: Just bought another Cosworth

lol I'd say none, if you turned up at the track with a 4WD funny car then they would just send you home..... with a note...................

Anyways, those wheels remind me of the 90's most cars from that era had those.....

But yeah I agree, buying a car to butcher up and use the parts for something better is a worthy cause to me... I can tell you any engine conversions I do in the future I will just buy the whole car....

looks good by the way OG and nice house.

 

[bigbadjoe]

Re: Just bought another Cosworth

Hi Rod

When you know it is obvious, but it still seems daft.

4x4s are for those who can't handle RWD

Whats that pain comming from the left hand side of my chest! Hit a nurve here!

(dont want to open up an old can of worms here but....)

Disagree. I can't believe anyone can knock AWD down. Yes they handle amazing, but there is nothing stopping the driver delivering similar preformance in a RWD. You just have to know how to drive em.

You cant just jump into a AWD and drive like Seb Loeb. They hanlde completly diferent to a FWD and a RWD. Yes they are more forgiving, but you still have to learn how to get the most of of it.

 

[obi_waynne]

AWD is heavy and that is why there are no pro dragsters with 4x4. I think that it is hard to get the full performance from a AWD as well as a RWD. The unwary can get caught out in either.

I prefer AWD, it just suits me better. I suppose the same goes for a lot of people with RWD cars. Both have advantages and disadvantages but I would prefer an inexperienced driver on public roads to be using a AWD rather than a RWD car.

 

[MasterAuron]

It's true imo AWD is far easier to drive fast than FWD and RWD.

 

[jarrus]

Each has its place in the motoring industry....
Its not used in drag racing because its not needed and you get a greater drivetrain loss with a 4WD system so more of the energy gets lost as heat or sound energy than being used as kinetic energy(driveing more gearboxs than turning wheels) however Audi proved on loose sufaces thay AWD is better, only one rwd beat it and it was a Lancia

 

[HDi fun]

On the road it really makes little difference in my opinion. How many of us really take cars through to their limits on the public highway?

 

[obi_waynne]

Weekdays or weekends hdi?

 

[HDi fun]

Weekdays or weekends hdi?

In truth I think RWD can be a bit of a handful if it's of the old fashioned live axle type arrangement. My car has independently sprung rear wheels. There's no axle as such, just a pair of half shafts with a CV joint at either end of each hlaf shaft, just like a FWD car has at the front.

I suspect if you completely switch off the DSC and the traction control then start driving 'indiscriminately ' in slippery conditions you might get it to misbehave whereas a AWD car would still maintain stability under acceleration. AWD does nothing for handling unless power is being applied.

FWD is a good compromise in my opinion as it tends to fail 'straight'.

 

[bigbadjoe]

In truth I think RWD can be a bit of a handful if it's of the old fashioned live axle type arrangement. My car has independently sprung rear wheels. There's no axle as such, just a pair of half shafts with a CV joint at either end of each hlaf shaft, just like a FWD car has at the front.

I suspect if you completely switch off the DSC and the traction control then start driving 'indiscriminately ' in slippery conditions you might get it to misbehave whereas a AWD car would still maintain stability under acceleration. AWD does nothing for handling unless power is being applied.

FWD is a good compromise in my opinion as it tends to fail 'straight'.

For example my car doesn't have traction control, oh, hold on. It does have AYC, scrap this post and my point I was about to make :embarrest:

 

[Yugguy]

Mate of mine's just spun his 330 on a greasy roundabout. I think its more that people are just not used to rwd and what to when you lose grip. Dab of oppo innit.

 

[HDi fun]

Mate of mine's just spun his 330 on a greasy roundabout. I think its more that people are just not used to rwd and what to when you lose grip. Dab of oppo innit.

Or slow down.

No amount of electronic intervention can overcome the laws of physics. If you barrel into something at a ridiculous speed then your exit trajectory is defined for you

 

[old-git]

On the road it really makes little difference in my opinion. How many of us really take cars through to their limits on the public highway?

Pedant Alert! Pedant Alert!

Redundantism:

All highways are public. There is no such thing as a private highway. Highway is defined as a way which everyone has the right to pass and repass along.

Humour me, this has been a hobby horse of mine for many years, but I know HD likes to get things correct

 

[HDi fun]

Pedant Alert! Pedant Alert!

Redundantism:

All highways are public. There is no such thing as a private highway. Highway is defined as a way which everyone has the right to pass and repass along.

Humour me, this has been a hobby horse of mine for many years, but I know HD likes to get things correct

I don't need to worry now because you've made the correction for me.

Your hobby horse is bashing me I think

Hello again Mr OG, hope you and yours are all well.

Is 'redundantism' in the dictionary?

 

[SLEEPER]

First my thanks to og for ressurecting this thread I wonder how long before it gets locked

First the answer to ogs question is yes and for a non proffessional driver that means I can corner quicker - and I didnt say quicker than someone else driving a RWD car I mean quicker than me driving one. Thats why I like AWD.

And just to remind those that dont realise AWD and 4wd (4x4) are not the same

A few replies ...................

I suspect if you completely switch off the DSC and the traction control then start driving 'indiscriminately ' in slippery conditions you might get it to misbehave whereas a AWD car would still maintain stability under acceleration. AWD does nothing for handling unless power is being applied.

FWD is a good compromise in my opinion as it tends to fail 'straight'.

A typical FWD assumption
How is failing straight better than not failing.

BTW some AWD systems do lots for the handling even when power isnt being supplied


No amount of electronic intervention can overcome the laws of physics. If you barrel into something at a ridiculous speed then your exit trajectory is defined for you :smile:

Another close to pointless reply IMHO ( sorry)
The fact that both an AWD and a FWD car will lose it going round a bend at a ridulous speed doesnt mean that the AWD wont take the corner quicker and safer

Another factor is power - If a FWD car has more than 250bhp and doesnt have a trick diff it wont handle well under power for sure and even with the diff this happens at 400 ish
And who wants to go round a bend with the power off

Finally I happily agree - all drag cars are RWD but the grip they get isnt really related to anything that is relavent to road use as the cars weight distribution etc are completely different.

 

[HDi fun]

First my thanks to og for ressurecting this thread I wonder how long before it gets locked

First the answer to ogs question is yes and for a non proffessional driver that means I can corner quicker - and I didnt say quicker than someone else driving a RWD car I mean quicker than me driving one. Thats why I like AWD.

And just to remind those that dont realise AWD and 4wd (4x4) are not the same

A few replies ...................



A typical FWD assumption
How is failing straight better than not failing.

BTW some AWD systems do lots for the handling even when power isnt being supplied


No amount of electronic intervention can overcome the laws of physics. If you barrel into something at a ridiculous speed then your exit trajectory is defined for you :smile:

Another close to pointless reply IMHO ( sorry)
The fact that both an AWD and a FWD car will lose it going round a bend at a ridulous speed doesnt mean that the AWD wont take the corner quicker and safer

Another factor is power - If a FWD car has more than 250bhp and doesnt have a trick diff it wont handle well under power for sure and even with the diff this happens at 400 ish
And who wants to go round a bend with the power off

Finally I happily agree - all drag cars are RWD but the grip they get isnt really related to anything that is relavent to road use as the cars weight distribution etc are completely different.

If no torque is applied the how do you think that AWD will be better than either FWD or RWD?

AWD isn't the magic elixir for averting all wrongs.

There is very little difference when considering road usage.

There are many stupid drivers of all types of cars. They get themselves into a mess regardless of the cars abilities.

 

[old-git]

I don't need to worry now because you've made the correction for me.

Your hobby horse is bashing me I think

Hello again Mr OG, hope you and yours are all well.

Is 'redundantism' in the dictionary?

I think we are on the same wavelength when it comes to getting things right, ie lamp/bulb and PIN number

Apart from my back giving me a bit of gyp I am fine as are the family, thanks. And yours?

Don't think so

 

[HDi fun]

Give the gyp some back then

Nice to see you're still around this place.

 

[SLEEPER]

What I actually said was

some awd systems do lots for the handling even when power isnt being supplied -

I meant that some systems contnue to work when you lift your foot off momentarily which is when power isnt being supplied.........

The awd system on the 34GTR and my stagea for example is far more than just a torque split
It works in conjunction with rear wheel steering and that is part of the awd system ,
It is controlled by speed sensors on each wheel which continue to provide information even when the wheels are not being driven so the car can and does correct slides even without the power on.
And when you put power the power back on it needs the readings got most recently which was when the power wasnt on .
To me thats doing something for the handling when power isnt being supplied


And when was the last time any compedant driver tried to drive a car through bends without applying some power to the wheels at some stage .

 

[stamford]

Interesting thread. I don't have any arguements with this as unless you have driven all types and have an understanding on the systems and what their strengths and weaknesses are. Also to ascertain if one is better than the other you need to know how to control a car and what to do when it starts to lose grip etc. From those I have driven todays systems are vastly different. I only know what I have driven so can't comment on most. For loose I prefer rwd, many years on the ovals (AWD and 4wd were banned at the time) but if you can afford the transmission losses then AWD etc is seen as the smoothest imo and probably makes a poor driver look very good.

Differing surfaces also dictate what suits best. Many moons ago I tested an Audi UR Quattro and as part of a development programme, tried 4wd, rwd and fwd on the same car with the necessary mods. The winner on tarmac was rwd, wet or loose was 4wd and fwd was last. However this doesn't mean it is correct, it's what worked for that particular layout, weight distribution, balance etc. Another car and engine/trans configuration would give a different result.

The common arguement will be down to driver input and how they recover, will those powering rwd steer in and keep the power on or panic and back of the gas? We all know where that ends..........like I said, some systems will make a poor driver look capable.

We only need to look at how circuit racers fare on rallys and vice-versa. Horses for courses.

 

[HDi fun]

Stability management systems - (DSC, ESP, ESC whatever the maker calls it) have been used as low cost alternatives to AWD. Clearly it's an inferior substitute but cost is where the priorities are in mainstream cars.

A well setup AWD car with full stability management will be the most expensive but also arguably the best.

 

[bigbadjoe]

A well setup AWD car with full stability management will be the most expensive but also arguably the best.

What was that?....... and Quote from Mr HDi

THE BEST!

Thank you. Thank you. Somone agrees with me! Never mind the other half of his quote, that was the important bit!! lol

 

[turbonutter69]

Driver control is key here no matter what setup the car has.

 

[SLEEPER]

Stability management systems - (DSC, ESP, ESC whatever the maker calls it) have been used as low cost alternatives to AWD. Clearly it's an inferior substitute but cost is where the priorities are in mainstream cars.

A well setup AWD car with full stability management will be the most expensive but also arguably the best.

Mine has ESP as well

 

[Yugguy]

Bah.

Real men drive highly-torqued badly-handling fwd diesels that lose grip at the slightest hint of acceleration in less than perfectly dry conditions.

 

[HDi fun]

Bah.

Real men drive highly-torqued badly-handling fwd diesels that lose grip at the slightest hint of acceleration in less than perfectly dry conditions.

My 406 was a bit like that. Wheel spin in third gear was easy in the wet. You soon learn to be gentle with it though.

 

[obi_waynne]

This thread is about which is easiest to drive not necessarily the most fun

I really like my cars Quattro system, it does flatter the driver and has oodles of grip. I still haven't got near to exploring the limits of grip (in the dry at least) and would probably have crashed a powerful RWD already.

911 or GTR? It is the GTR for me everytime. Is this bad? Shouldn't I go for the pure visceral enjoyment of a thoroughbred 911?

 

[SLEEPER]

awd is easier to drive but that doesnt neccessarily mean it is less fun -


for example you can push it more in dodgy conditions- without it I dont think mine would be very driveable in the wet

 

[bigbadjoe]

911 or GTR? It is the GTR for me everytime. Is this bad? Shouldn't I go for the pure visceral enjoyment of a thoroughbred 911?

I'm sorry Waynne, is that even a question?

I'm guessing your on about the newer 911 turbo against the ultra grippy, ultra fast, computer on wheels GT-R. The 911 is God knows how many years old. Doesn't matter how often they remake it, its still old hat. I recon you could have more fun in a well set up skyline than a 911. Anyhows

GT-R all the way!!!! Its the future!

 

[T9 man]

awd is easier to drive but that doesnt neccessarily mean it is less fun -


for example you can push it more in dodgy conditions- without it I dont think mine would be very driveable in the wet

Exactly, which is why I shall be getting this system fitted next year.