Forged pistons for 2002 Jaguar S Type R 4,2 V8 s/c

zcuvalo

zcuvalo

Wrench Pro
Points
51
Location
Zagreb, Croatia
Car
Jaguar S Type R s/c
Hi,
My name is Zvonimir, I live in Zagreb, Croatia. My drive is 2002 Jaguar S Type R, 4,2 L V8 with s/c. Every since I bought this car I had nothing but troubles and problems. Literally, I had to repair or change almost every vital part of the car except for the gearbox (ZF). First I have believed it is due to car quality but later I have learned its due to Jaguar service in Zagreb - low or better to say no quality at all. Avoid by all means. My first engine exploded at some 92.000 km, then I bought a new (new) one. That one lasted up until 10 days ago - with some 75.000 km. It would take me more then 10 pages to describe all the faults and misdoing they did on my car. Instead, I have finally found a good mechanic and things are as follows:
- water and oil have entered one cylinder and piston is gone, the rest is ok - it seems so for the time being.
- one catalytic converter is (or was) covered with oil and water smoke - I still have to ensure it is not damaged.
- engine is out of the car and I am looking for forged lightweight piston kit for my engine. I have send many e-mails but so far no luck. If anybody reading this has any experience or advice on this - please help.
- Two years ago I did some tuning on the car - done by tuning company Arden from Krefeld in Germany - and I can say - Its a money well spent. All they did was additional ECU unit, Ardens developed Billstein suspension set, Ardens sport exhaust and front splitter with rear apron as well. The car is excellent for driving now - except I do need to repair my engine (again).
 
Tried Wossner, JE, Accralite, Wiseco? Give them a ring. Many companies often don't list items on their websites but do actually stock them.
 
Thank you MasterAuron. Some of them I have contacted via e-mail but some new names are in your post. I shall do that on Monday. Once again, thanks.
 
charger69 said:
man you seem you have kinda serious troubles with the jaguar. if it continues, try changing the car.
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My main problem is official Jaguar service in Zagreb - they charge a lot and provide in return nothing. I took my car in Germany, Munich a year ago in Auto Koenig and everything was fine untill cooling system pipe started to leak. Official Jaguar service did not have the replacement so they have fitted small PLASTIC pipe untill the OE part is available. Do I have to mention that this plastic piece got melted in 10 minutes!! When they first fitted new engine to my car along with new s/c engine was always bit warmer then it should have been. Then they have changed 5 times the thermo switch, and after I went really angry with them and took the chief mechanic for a quick drive (250 kmh on highway) he has agreed with me it is something else - it was at the end of a day a water pump that was causing the problem all the time. This problem that I have today is acctually only a logical end of misdoing they did there. Finally I have found a good and reliable mechanic I can work with. NOw I am trying to use the moment and do some additional tuning on the engine. All I need for the moment is forged piston kit, lightweight, aluminum or titanium...
 
Sid447 said:
I believe,

Arias, JE, Diamond, Mahle and maybe Cosworth might do forged pistons for the AJV8 series engines.

http://www.racinggreencars.com/modern/JaguarAJ-V8Engine.pdf

http://www.racinggreencars.com/modern.asp
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Thank you for your post. I have I believe contacted all or the above mentioned companies via e-mail and I am still waiting for reply. This morning I have received a reply from Racing greens cars that they do not have forged light weight piston kit and that they do not know if anybody is producing those for Jaguar. I shall check the Diamond - them I did not contacted so far - perhaps they shall have pistons. Mahle have replied few days ago stating that they dont have them on the stock, but if I send them engine details (serial number, VIN and code numbers on the OE pistons) they shall check if they have a solution for me. Thank you for the articles, I have read them with interest, they did help me and I shall forward them to my mechanic.
 
Prince said:
Welcome to the forum mate... Hopefully everything should work out for you. It's difficult to find a decent mechanic sometimes.
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I do agree with you. It took me 6 years to find one near me. The closest best solution so far for me was Munich, Germany - Auto Koenig. This new mechanic in Zagreb used to work for Jaguar then he has opened garage of his own - so far I am satisfied. Jaguar is rather new car on Croatian market, and there are only few who are reliable (two that I know of) in Zagreb.
 
zcuvalo said:
My main problem is official Jaguar service in Zagreb - they charge a lot and provide in return nothing. I took my car in Germany, Munich a year ago in Auto Koenig and everything was fine untill cooling system pipe started to leak. Official Jaguar service did not have the replacement so they have fitted small PLASTIC pipe untill the OE part is available. Do I have to mention that this plastic piece got melted in 10 minutes!! When they first fitted new engine to my car along with new s/c engine was always bit warmer then it should have been. Then they have changed 5 times the thermo switch, and after I went really angry with them and took the chief mechanic for a quick drive (250 kmh on highway) he has agreed with me it is something else - it was at the end of a day a water pump that was causing the problem all the time. This problem that I have today is acctually only a logical end of misdoing they did there. Finally I have found a good and reliable mechanic I can work with. NOw I am trying to use the moment and do some additional tuning on the engine. All I need for the moment is forged piston kit, lightweight, aluminum or titanium...
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those are the main problems we have here in our region, bad mechanics. hopefully you do have some knowledge and check your car before taking it from their garage. do you have that often problems with your car?
 
You can have some custom-made. But it's up to your wallet.

Or use forged pistons from another car. But it's up to you to do the research.
 
charger69 said:
those are the main problems we have here in our region, bad mechanics. hopefully you do have some knowledge and check your car before taking it from their garage. do you have that often problems with your car?
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I am sorry to hear that you also have the same or similar problems. As for the car - I had so many problems with it that it is impossible to cover them all - first I believed its the low quality, but it is not. The service is my main problem. Trouble is, if I fix it somewhere else I loose warranty, but now it is gone and I have spend last two years finding good one. I think I did. I do hope so. As for the car, there are only few thing in it that I did not replace or repair - depending on failure.
In brief:
- 2 engines fatal failures,
- one gearbox failure - electronic was replaced,
- air conditioner was repaired for about 10 times, only recently it is operating ok,
- plastic pieces in end out of the car were failing more then 20 times, finally I glue them myself to stay in place - those I could,
- when I took the car over as I paid for it - the very second day I have learned that phone was not working, out of 10, only one speaker was playing music, air con. was not cooling or heating, whipers failed to activate on the rain, and so on...
- as the new engine was fitted to the car it was overheating repeatedly, they were replacing thermo switch for about 5 times and only after about 3 months they have found it was water pump failure, by that time the engine was damaged, and few days ago has failed by leting the water in cylinder cousing the damage,
And so on, and so on,, But if you look at it it is the service, official service misdoing to be blaimed for all of that, but one can not prove that - one should be very educated in technical details for to prove it. I have informed Jaguar about it, but nothing has changed. Thats life...
 
MasterAuron said:
You can have some custom-made. But it's up to your wallet.

Or use forged pistons from another car. But it's up to you to do the research.
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Well I have that idea as well on my mind, but trouble is to have it done by reliable person or company. Idea with piston is, since I did some tuning on my car in the past, I am thinking of using this situation and improve the engine a bit. It is about forged, light weight optimized aluminum or titanium pistons and piston rings I am looking for. I can order regular piston kit with out a problem, but I would like to do some more, with note, the car is for everyday driving, not for racing. If you have the idea of somebody who is good and reliable, and can produce them help me establish a contact with him and perhaps that may be a solution for me..
 
pgarner said:
long shot, maybe really long. wonder if Ford make some ?
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Problem is Ford shall reply and forward me to the Jaguar, and they shall offer regular piston kit. I think that this current engine is Cosworth engine (or I am wrong) Jaguar both in 60ies and race with it for some time in Le Mans and F1. This is a civil version of that engine, that have been improved through time. I did contacted via e-mail Cosworth company and I am still waiting for them to reply. Most of the answer I am receiving today is - I am sorry we do not have them on stock - try somewhere else. It is a wonder that nobody so far has piston kit for Jaguar - light weight, hammered (is it a good term?) optimized, aluminum or titanium, that is for tuning purposes, not for repairing purposes. I do believe that with lighter pistons the engin will rev faster!
 
no what i was on about was you may find that the piston and rod may be the same part as a ford item, if so them you could have a look for then under ford engines. ie the focus ST may use the same parts as the jag. but this is purly hypothetical
if so you could look for forged parts for the ST.
 
Bad news. One cylinder got schratched and according to my mechanic it has to be bored on 1st stage. Problem is i am not sure it can be done here - perhaps but then I need piston kit custom made. Tomorrow I shall see my mechanic for more detailed info.
 
1st stage? Re-bore anyway if you're rebuilding the block imo. Machine shops over here charge pennies for it. Shouldn't be that hard to find a place over there surely?
 
MasterAuron said:
1st stage? Re-bore anyway if you're rebuilding the block imo. Machine shops over here charge pennies for it. Shouldn't be that hard to find a place over there surely?
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I have asked around, and according to my mechanic there is only one place recommended, parallel to that I am trying to find a solution for forged pistons to fit the new dimensions.. I am still waiting for reply from Mahle and some others. Pitty that most of the contacts that I have established do not have pistons for Jaguar at all. In the meantime I have contacted Arden from Germany - they have on web some sort of solution - it is the cost that leads the decision. What they have is increased engine capacity to 4.5 L with light pistons, rods and crankshafts, along with other improvement - but the price is to be sent to me...
 
Well I give up. I just bought new rebuild engine. What I have learned is that pistons are Mahle OE, but you can order them only through Jaguar, and Jaguar takes abbout the century to reach decision and offer them for sale. I tried Jaguar service here in Zagreb, Jaguar tech. department in England but no answer in two weeks whatsoever. As if they were not interested in selling the parts or engine to me...
 
Try emailing,

some Custom Piston manufacturers. There may be a company that supplies these to some motorsport fraternity and could even have them "on the shelf" in stock.

Mahle deal direct to manufacturers and are o.e. suppliers to a lot of different companies. They are not going to react to an individual requesting a special order.
You'd need to go to the division of Mahle that makes forged pistons. I believe this is in the USA.
 
Did all that. I have sent out some 20 e-mails to different piston manufacturers or resellers - Pistons online, AJ pistons, and others I dont even remember now. Mahle did reply twice to my e-mail and have promised to see if they can help me. Main problem is that one cylinder is scratched and I need to re-bore it and then I have to find pistons that should fit new cylinder dimension - in Croatia it is almost mission imposible. There is one or two persons who can do re-bore good, but then there is a problem to find pistons for that dimension. I did have received one link with one company in England - Farndon - they have experience with this problem - they increase volume to 4,5 L and deliver pistons that fit that dimension. But transport costs are higher then a price of a rebuild engine I have acquiered yesterday. So I gave up - perhaps when this engine dies I shall have more time and patiente to finish my project. Arden has offered to do all of that job but the price was 30.000 E - a bit too much for me.
 
zcuvalo,

How deep is the scratch in the cylinder? can you measure it?
e.g. if i is less than 0.005" or 0.127mm this can easily be removed by re-honing to first over-size which is normally 0.005." You would need to check on this.
 
Hi Sid447,
The scratch was inspected by 2 mechanics and they claime it can not be polished, it has to be rebored to stage 1. But as I was told then I need 1st stage pistons - and nobody has the idea where to find them. Mahle pistons are OE, but they sell it through Jag dealers only, and the local dealer is zero interested in help. More then 3 weeks they did not reply for small engine kit quest. I have the photos of scratched cylinder and I shall try to post it here tomorrow. I am giving up of this engine, it will be collected by Jag dealer from NL, he is selling me his rebuild engine for lower price (5.600 E with transport). Many things would have been easier if I was in UK or Germany, here thera are only few good mechanic for that issue, and they have never, ever dealt with Jag engine (I did contacted them all). My idea was to rebore to 1st stage or to 4,5 L and then have aluminum or titanium forged pistons installed, but in 4 weeks did not receive any positive reply. Jaguar (England) engenieers did some plan for to help me but they were to slow and I have decided to cut through, get a new engine (rebuild) and get back on the wheels again.
 
Hi zcuvalo,

This is almost exactly what happened to my GM V8 some time ago. In the same cylinder too by the look of it (#7 which is left-side rear).
Unsure of the cause for my piston cracking in virtually the same place as yours but mine caused more than just a cylinder scratch! The piece of (cast) piston got trapped between the piston and cylinder wall and fractured the block cylinder wall. I had to buy a complete new engine block and rebuilt the engine from scratch using (yes!) forged (Lunati) pistons for better reliability.

GM build quality and the fact that with most V8's the left rear cylinder runs hottest (because of the way the coolant flows around the engine) and this then caused detonation only in that cylinder was the most convincing reason for my engine failure, I think.
As like yours, all the other cylinders/pistons in my original engine were perfect with no signs of detonation damage or even discolouration from a weak mixture.

Sorry to hear and see the trouble you've had. I found a set of forged 99mm pistons quite easily and the rebuilt engine has run without missing a beat since (2005). :)
 
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What shall I say, lucky you - you are right - it is a last cyilinder in the row just in front of a driver, on the left if you are looking from the driver seat forward. I was warned by few experienced mechanics that it was most probably the case with both of my engines - now I am paying attention to put new fuel injectors (they cool the piston head when working properly), and to be honest have no idea what shall I do with my new engine regarding this problem - it is a engineering problem - most likely I shall try to find forged pistons, titanium when possible (if not to expensive) - hoping that they shall cope with this general flow. You say that Lunati works fine with your V8 engine - how about checking with them if they have set of forged pistons for my V8 4,2 L. Just to have reserve if things start to go wrong (again)..
 
Improving the coolant flow,

around the engine somehow and/or fitting a bigger radiator helps zcuvalo.
I fitted both a cylinder head coolant vent tube modification and a heavy-duty motorsport radiator, plus! a 30cm x 30cm engine oil cooler to try and bring engine temperatures down and improve cooling flow around the engine.
Fitting the forged pistons gave piece of mind, as they tolerate detonation better and are much tougher than cast pistons (you can't get pistons made of titanium, by the way!)
The fuel injectors don't cool the piston as such, it's the amount or ratio of fuel mixture that is injected into the chamber and mixed with air thatv can be adjusted to keep cylinder head temps down; and if you are running a super-charged engine it should be at 12.5:1 AFR when in Power Enrichment or Transient Fuelling mode (to keep it on the rich side for this purpose exactly).
The injectors will only be a problem if they aren't flowing correctly.


On this website it says the 2003 model Jaguar 4.2 SC-V8 engine comes fitted with forged pistons......???

Read here:-
"........The 4.2-liter V8 engine delivers truly spirited performance.Jaguar has redesigned this engine, ...................Changes over last year's 4.0 engine include new cylinder heads, forged pistons, a new exhaust manifold, and many other changes

I found this information, here:-

http://autos.aol.com/cars-Jaguar-S_TYPE-2004/expert-review
 
Hi SID447,
I agree with you in regard with fuel injectors. Yes, S Type R comes with forged pistons - I have heard that from jaguar engine engineers, I am in contact with one of them via e-mail. They were preparing a solution - proposal to me, but they were a bit slow, in two weeks I havent received anything from them - its a long procedure, they say, but I could not wait that long.
But your idea of improving coolant flow is the only viable solution to this problem, I think. Can you describe for me this cylinder coolant tube modification - if it is not too complicated I may have my mechanic look in that and do something in that sense - what is it - how do I get it. Radiators are going to be new, all pipes cleaned and replaced, all in favor of better engine cooling.
I think I have a lot to learn from you about this issue - you did your thing very good, obviously.
Regards,
Zvonimir
 
Forged pistons for 2002 Jaguar S Type R 4.2 V8 s/c

Hi Zvonimir,

My V8 had blanking plugs in the cylinder head that were used in earlier models but deleted for some reason after 2001 so I just had to buy the parts from an earlier model and remove my blanking plugs to fit it.

Post #2 in this link shows a picture of the later type vent-tube (it's slightly bent in a "v" shape to clear the PCV breather tube with the red plug cover on it) crossing at the front of the engine only, with the blanking plugs just visible at the back on each cylinder head.....

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/gener...lley-cover-pcv-system-coolant-vent-tubes.html

Then this link shows a picture of an earlier engine with the older (better) style coolant vent tubes which run not only across the front but back along the valley plate cover to the rear of each cylinder head also.

The 9th picture down the left side bar.........

http://www.ls1howto.com/index.php?article=5

So it was pretty straight-forward for my modification. I am not familiar enough with the Jag V8 to know how to improve cooling for the hotter #7 (left-side rear) cylinder. :) You need a good engineer!

Regards, Steve.
 
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Hi Steve,
Thanks for detailed answer, text and photos did help me understand issue a bit better. What I shall do, if you dont midd, is to go straight forward and ask Jaguar engineers directly about this issue and show them how you delt with it on your car. Perhaps they will be able to provide some tips on how to improve coolant flow on existing engine. One thing I shall do for sure is to inform my mechanic about your post.
Many thanks for very thorough post. I shall keep in touch and let youknow about what I did.
Regards, Zvonimir
 
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