What old drivers dont get
- Thread starter misenthrop
- Start date
MasterAuron
Very Senior Member
Old drivers round here don't get how to turn a corner without cutting it and nearly taking off peoples front ends or causing them to have to brake early. Nightmare!
HDi fun
TC ModFather
This is a nationwide problem and it's not just the oldies either I'm afraid.
Prince
Torque King
Old drivers tend to hesitate more. A lot of really old drivers reach a stage where it is unsafe for them to drive, yet some how get cheaper insurance than I do at age 22. Some (not all) simply don't have the ability anymore after they reach a certain age.
We had an old lady at work (who clearly shouldn't have her license anymore) who tried to drive where we were unloading a lorry. We clearly sectioned the area off, we were all wearing high vis jackets and there was a forklift truck tipping the lorry. I literally had to run up to her bonnet shouting stop before she drove into the back of the forklift. When I explained to her that the area was restricted and she wasn't allowed to drive there, she didn't seem to know what day it was.
We had an old lady at work (who clearly shouldn't have her license anymore) who tried to drive where we were unloading a lorry. We clearly sectioned the area off, we were all wearing high vis jackets and there was a forklift truck tipping the lorry. I literally had to run up to her bonnet shouting stop before she drove into the back of the forklift. When I explained to her that the area was restricted and she wasn't allowed to drive there, she didn't seem to know what day it was.
HDi fun
TC ModFather
I know what you mean about inattentive older drivers. You're probably right, she shouldn't have a license any longer. What's really shameful though is that she, too, probably agrees with both of us but has no choice other than to drive. Public transport does want sorting out.
But some are equally bad long before getting anywhere near old. In this case I'd summon them to court and ban them for life. I would not apply a fine. In contrast, I'd give 'em a grant of £5000 per year to contribute to taxi fares etc. just to keep 'em well off the road and so there's no incentive to appeal against the ban.
They get cheaper insurance because they have less crashes and so cost the insurance companies far less money
IMO for every old person who shouldn't be driving there are 10 22 year olds who shouldn't be allowed to be in control of a shoppnig trolley let alone a lethal object such as a car!
At 22 you are the best driver in the world, know all there is to know about driving (well. you should do, having had a licenCe for up to 5 years - almost a lifetime) and anyone over 35 should be using public transport.
The older you get (assuming that you survive the know-it-all years) the less you realise you actually know.
Old people tend to drive within their capabilities. Young people THINK they are driving within their capabilities.
I will now duck for cover
HDi fun
TC ModFather
They get cheaper insurance because they have less crashes and so cost the insurance companies far less money
IMO for every old person who shouldn't be driving there are 10 22 year olds who shouldn't be allowed to be in control of a shoppnig trolley let alone a lethal object such as a car!
At 22 you are the best driver in the world, know all there is to know about driving (well. you should do, having had a licenCe for up to 5 years - almost a lifetime) and anyone over 35 should be using public transport.
The older you get (assuming that you survive the know-it-all years) the less you realise you actually know.
Old people tend to drive within their capabilities. Young people THINK they are driving within their capabilities.
I will now duck for cover
It's a good point and a well presented one. Many drivers gain confidence far more quickly than they gain ability to observe and plan ahead. This is dangerous because they will drive beyond their own capability.
Even at my tender age of 40 I suspect that many younger drivers (not all, I don't want to generalise) will perhaps have quicker reactions than I have. Especially in response to abstract and spurious stimuli. They might well react very quickly to a situation as soon as they see it.
But, if I've seen the developing situation 4 seconds earlier and adjusted my speed, position etc in that time then it might be reasonably argued that my reactions are quicker.
I'm still not overly keen on denigrating (slagging off) young drivers on a wholesale basis though.
Agreed. What you lose in reaction time is more than compensated by the ability to read the road and situation ahead quicker so avoid having to rely on quick reactions. If you have to reguarly rely on quick reactions you are driving too fast for either the conditons or your skill level.
However, not all young drivers are bad. Look at us, HD, we were perfect by half way through our first lesson
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Does anyone actually read the first post? :blink:
HDi fun
TC ModFather
Agreed. What you lose in reaction time is more than compensated by the ability to read the road and situation ahead quicker so avoid having to rely on quick reactions. If you have to reguarly rely on quick reactions you are driving too fast for either the conditons or your skill level.
However, not all young drivers are bad. Look at us, HD, we were perfect by half way through our first lesson
Yes, we were absolutely perfect. We knew it all. That's why neither of us has learned anything since passing the basic L test.
There is no need. 
yep but i dont like being discriminated against for my age:toung:
As another young wipper snapper like Old Git and HDi I feel I must add to this thread too!
Lorry drivers and HGV drivers are soon going to have to attend classroom based refresher lessons. It would be a good thing for all of us to have a timely reminder to focus the mind.
Health really comes into this. If a driver is not able to react quickly to a given situation or is unable to properly use his mirrors due to stiffness or physical restrictions then he should consider the possiblity of giving up his licence.
I can't see why we self certify in this country. I know many drivers who are too unsteady to be driving. Some passed their tests in the last 30 years or so after about 5 or 10 failed tests. Yet these same people get to decide when they should give up their licences.
I really don't think age is the factor though, as you get older your health has to be taken into consideration. Many old drivers I know are really good drivers.
Lorry drivers and HGV drivers are soon going to have to attend classroom based refresher lessons. It would be a good thing for all of us to have a timely reminder to focus the mind.
Health really comes into this. If a driver is not able to react quickly to a given situation or is unable to properly use his mirrors due to stiffness or physical restrictions then he should consider the possiblity of giving up his licence.
I can't see why we self certify in this country. I know many drivers who are too unsteady to be driving. Some passed their tests in the last 30 years or so after about 5 or 10 failed tests. Yet these same people get to decide when they should give up their licences.
I really don't think age is the factor though, as you get older your health has to be taken into consideration. Many old drivers I know are really good drivers.
Theres a first post?!
pgarner
TC ModFather
they forget what the pedal on the right is for !!!! they seem to just let the car tick over and not apply the throttle
Yugguy
Torque King
My father-in-law doesnt seem to get that the Mondeo he drives now, a 59 plate, is a lot bigger than the Mondeo he drove back in 1995.
OK I'll add my twopen'orth to this
Yes there are bad oldies on the roads and.... really bad young ones. They are of both sexes and from all society.
Thats just how it is.
Every driver needs to be capable of complete car control but few are.
How many have been on a skidpan? Usually it is when they are doing a 360 on ice & snow
Some few years ago I tried to initiate SMART:
Society of Motorists Annually Road Trained.
I was shot down Primarily by local newspaper who deliberately misquoted that it would be " a 3rd force and like vigilantes"
It would have been, as some organisations are now; voluntary so I agree with you Waynne that a refresher that is compulsory after some years driving would be beneficial to society as a whole. ANY way to reduce death and chaos on our roads should be appreciated and let us not gripe that it would be another cash in pocket for the Govt.
If you have a cancer the quicker you deal with it you may recover. Letting it go on means eventual fatality.
The very many problems with our roads are a cancer and it now seems to be inoperable
The young know it all.
Unfortunately, IT is a very small part of the whole:bigsmile::blink:
Yes there are bad oldies on the roads and.... really bad young ones. They are of both sexes and from all society.
Thats just how it is.
Every driver needs to be capable of complete car control but few are.
How many have been on a skidpan? Usually it is when they are doing a 360 on ice & snow
Some few years ago I tried to initiate SMART:
Society of Motorists Annually Road Trained.
I was shot down
Primarily by local newspaper who deliberately misquoted that it would be " a 3rd force and like vigilantes"It would have been, as some organisations are now; voluntary so I agree with you Waynne that a refresher that is compulsory after some years driving would be beneficial to society as a whole. ANY way to reduce death and chaos on our roads should be appreciated and let us not gripe that it would be another cash in pocket for the Govt.
If you have a cancer the quicker you deal with it you may recover. Letting it go on means eventual fatality.
The very many problems with our roads are a cancer and it now seems to be inoperable
The young know it all.
Unfortunately, IT is a very small part of the whole:bigsmile::blink:
suzsx041
Torque Junkie
just you are only young for a short time so make the most of it
Broken Cambelt
Torque Junkie
Im an utter zealot for the cause of tougher driving tests anyway, so im all for a re test for the pensioners, not the case for all im sure but widley they seem to fail at basic observation and reaction.
Age does not mean experience, some people die having not lived a day in thier life (or learned anything).
overconfidence may be a curse of the young (the way i drove in my first year its a wonder im alive), but it does not mean the elderly are not equally guilty, those thirty somthings who wrestled lotus elans round tracks in the 1960's somtimes drive with the same agression today in their 80's. in cars that handle far worse, not willing to accept that their reflexes may have slowed in any fashion.
Age does not mean experience, some people die having not lived a day in thier life (or learned anything).
overconfidence may be a curse of the young (the way i drove in my first year its a wonder im alive), but it does not mean the elderly are not equally guilty, those thirty somthings who wrestled lotus elans round tracks in the 1960's somtimes drive with the same agression today in their 80's. in cars that handle far worse, not willing to accept that their reflexes may have slowed in any fashion.
Hi,
I don't want to keep hammering on AND, .. Cambelt might be adding to quotes rather than replying directly to mine:bigsmile:
But..... to answer him in generalisation then:
I completely agree that Test should be tougher. Lessons ought to include some dual carriageway work and, definitely; the correct route round a roundabout. There is much more to add but not here:blink:
In my quote I intimated that the compulsory refreshers were for ALL. This is possibly the way to go. Drivers should think about maintaining a 'standard' and to have to pass a Test after a few years should help that Utopian idyll
Age certainly does not equate with gaining proper experience. With a licence at 17 you have53 years of mistakes you can make (if you manage to live that long:sad2
No doubt most, if not all of us drove without care and consideration when we first passed our Tests.whatever faults and unsupported beliefs we held passed into urban myth and, we may now continue to pass these attitudes to our young.
Finally, and just to add a litle light relief to a serious subject
1. A police Officer stopped an old female couple on the A36 because the driver was going so slowly.when asked why so the driver replied that it was a 36 limit!:amazed: He then noticed that the passenger was shaking and frightened."are you OK?"
"Yes, but thank God we have come off the A140:bigsmile:"
2. Having stopped a middle aged driver on checking the licence he noted to them that they were supposed to wear glasses.
"I've got contacts"
"You might well have but you're still getting a ticket"
I hope jokes are allowed (clean ones:toung If not apologies to all:embarrest:
I don't want to keep hammering on AND, .. Cambelt might be adding to quotes rather than replying directly to mine:bigsmile:
But..... to answer him in generalisation then:
I completely agree that Test should be tougher. Lessons ought to include some dual carriageway work and, definitely; the correct route round a roundabout. There is much more to add but not here:blink:
In my quote I intimated that the compulsory refreshers were for ALL. This is possibly the way to go. Drivers should think about maintaining a 'standard' and to have to pass a Test after a few years should help that Utopian idyll
Age certainly does not equate with gaining proper experience. With a licence at 17 you have53 years of mistakes you can make (if you manage to live that long:sad2
No doubt most, if not all of us drove without care and consideration when we first passed our Tests.whatever faults and unsupported beliefs we held passed into urban myth and, we may now continue to pass these attitudes to our young.
Finally, and just to add a litle light relief to a serious subject
1. A police Officer stopped an old female couple on the A36 because the driver was going so slowly.when asked why so the driver replied that it was a 36 limit!:amazed: He then noticed that the passenger was shaking and frightened."are you OK?"
"Yes, but thank God we have come off the A140:bigsmile:"
2. Having stopped a middle aged driver on checking the licence he noted to them that they were supposed to wear glasses.
"I've got contacts"
"You might well have but you're still getting a ticket"
I hope jokes are allowed (clean ones:toung
If not apologies to all:embarrest:
HDi fun
TC ModFather
As I said in the thread entitled "What don't young drivers get?"
Old!
Old!
picassoonwheels
Road Burner
Well I, for one, am all for retests!
I have this neighbor, who suffers from schizophrenia, parkinson’s, and wait, he is also myopic and suffers from complete loss of hearing in one ear, while he wears a hearing aide in the other. Oh! And he is 78 years old.
One day he even called the police, saying that the woman dancing in his window a/c has a knife and wants to kill him.
When he parks his car, it’s either with one wheel on the kerb, else 4’ from it. And 8 times out of 10, blocking my driveway. The remaining time he pulls up in my driveway and parks there, sometimes even trying to open my door with his keys.
When I approach him to move the car, it takes him 20 minutes to open the door, as he is scared of strangers. Then it’s another 10 minutes while I re-introduce myself on the top of my voice, so that his hearing aide can let him hear me. During these 10 minutes I get a lot of pleasant stares from passers-by, who, if they could have spared a minute, would surely have rushed up and imparted their opinion about how to treat elders. And please note that the gentleman is tottering all the time, so I am reaching out constantly, as a reflex action, to prevent him from falling over. So to someone passing by it may seem as if I am accosting him.
Then another 10 minutes to explain that he is blocking my drive-way and I need to get to work.
When success of my endeavors finally makes its presence known, by the sudden glow of comprehension in his expression, it is no comfort to me, since this is not the first time.
He asks me to wait on his doorstep, while he gets the car keys. Saying this he promptly shuts the door, allegedly to get the keys, and then another occasion for a coin-flip. Because, there is a 50/50 chance of him forgetting me at the doorstep.
By this time I am at least ¾ hrs late for work, and pondering if I should start the whole rigmarole again, with no guarantees of the outcome being different, or just call a cab………
Oh! Believe you me, I have complained to the local constabulary numerous time. But as soon as they arrive at his doorstep, the door swings open and they are invited in for tea. You see he is a retired Brigadier, and has a special affinity to men in uniform.
So after 30minutes or so, when they step out, having consumed numerous cups of tea, and heard a lot of war stories, they are as pleased as pudding, ribbing each other, and chuckling.
The minute they see me they sober down and stare at me, as if to say how heartless can I be, complain about this sweet old man.
Thus life goes on, and this is one of the reasons my SX4 has done only 4800kms in the last 11 months. ‘Coz I rarely get an opportunity to take it out of my drive way.
Now here is a fit candidate for either a retest of simply confiscation of license.
I mean, ok so you were once a big-shot, and drove tanks and armored vehicles into battle. But you can’t go on living in your dreams.
You gotta file for Chapter 7, when your ego starts writing checks you body can’t cash.
Picasso
I have this neighbor, who suffers from schizophrenia, parkinson’s, and wait, he is also myopic and suffers from complete loss of hearing in one ear, while he wears a hearing aide in the other. Oh! And he is 78 years old.
One day he even called the police, saying that the woman dancing in his window a/c has a knife and wants to kill him.
When he parks his car, it’s either with one wheel on the kerb, else 4’ from it. And 8 times out of 10, blocking my driveway. The remaining time he pulls up in my driveway and parks there, sometimes even trying to open my door with his keys.
When I approach him to move the car, it takes him 20 minutes to open the door, as he is scared of strangers. Then it’s another 10 minutes while I re-introduce myself on the top of my voice, so that his hearing aide can let him hear me. During these 10 minutes I get a lot of pleasant stares from passers-by, who, if they could have spared a minute, would surely have rushed up and imparted their opinion about how to treat elders. And please note that the gentleman is tottering all the time, so I am reaching out constantly, as a reflex action, to prevent him from falling over. So to someone passing by it may seem as if I am accosting him.
Then another 10 minutes to explain that he is blocking my drive-way and I need to get to work.
When success of my endeavors finally makes its presence known, by the sudden glow of comprehension in his expression, it is no comfort to me, since this is not the first time.
He asks me to wait on his doorstep, while he gets the car keys. Saying this he promptly shuts the door, allegedly to get the keys, and then another occasion for a coin-flip. Because, there is a 50/50 chance of him forgetting me at the doorstep.
By this time I am at least ¾ hrs late for work, and pondering if I should start the whole rigmarole again, with no guarantees of the outcome being different, or just call a cab………
Oh! Believe you me, I have complained to the local constabulary numerous time. But as soon as they arrive at his doorstep, the door swings open and they are invited in for tea. You see he is a retired Brigadier, and has a special affinity to men in uniform.
So after 30minutes or so, when they step out, having consumed numerous cups of tea, and heard a lot of war stories, they are as pleased as pudding, ribbing each other, and chuckling.
The minute they see me they sober down and stare at me, as if to say how heartless can I be, complain about this sweet old man.
Thus life goes on, and this is one of the reasons my SX4 has done only 4800kms in the last 11 months. ‘Coz I rarely get an opportunity to take it out of my drive way.
Now here is a fit candidate for either a retest of simply confiscation of license.
I mean, ok so you were once a big-shot, and drove tanks and armored vehicles into battle. But you can’t go on living in your dreams.
You gotta file for Chapter 7, when your ego starts writing checks you body can’t cash.
Picasso
WOW!!
Here's an idea:toung:
Turn up on his doorstep looking like one of your paintings and scare xxxx out of him
Seriously though.
Obviously:
1 This guy is a menace to other roadusers, everyone around him AND himself
2 Regardless of ANY previous status, fame or noteriety everyone should be treated the same. It would seem that he is somehow managing to stay coherent when the Police come along. (Is this possible from your description)
3 The Test in India is much different from here in UK I believe, as it is in other countries, but surely; he could not hope to pass one:blink:
4 Have not others suffered by the actions of this man?
Maybe you need to get a petition, photo or (especially) video evidence and hopefully a medical examiner's opinion.
I would hope that the described situation could NOT ever continue here in UK. But...... maybe some dogooder(s) might manage to prevent any action being taken here too.
There are supposed to be Police people (maybe solicitors??) on the site. If so let us have an opinion from them as to what would/could/should be the answer. There in India and here in UK.
I for one could not continue to tolerate this scenario without action been taken and I am always loath to suggest or act on my own behalf BEFORE resorting to the Laws.
You have my sympathy Piccasso.
In the meantime maybe get in a stock of Prosac/Valium
Here's an idea:toung:
Turn up on his doorstep looking like one of your paintings and scare xxxx out of him
Seriously though.
Obviously:
1 This guy is a menace to other roadusers, everyone around him AND himself
2 Regardless of ANY previous status, fame or noteriety everyone should be treated the same. It would seem that he is somehow managing to stay coherent when the Police come along. (Is this possible from your description
)3 The Test in India is much different from here in UK I believe, as it is in other countries, but surely; he could not hope to pass one:blink:
4 Have not others suffered by the actions of this man?
Maybe you need to get a petition, photo or (especially) video evidence and hopefully a medical examiner's opinion.
I would hope that the described situation could NOT ever continue here in UK. But...... maybe some dogooder(s) might manage to prevent any action being taken here too.
There are supposed to be Police people (maybe solicitors??) on the site. If so let us have an opinion from them as to what would/could/should be the answer. There in India and here in UK.
I for one could not continue to tolerate this scenario without action been taken and I am always loath to suggest or act on my own behalf BEFORE resorting to the Laws.
You have my sympathy Piccasso.
In the meantime maybe get in a stock of Prosac/Valium
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MasterAuron
Very Senior Member
How the hell do you do 3/4's like that on a keyboard?
picassoonwheels
Road Burner
@ glabus:
Circumstances, rules, and protocol here in India, are as susceptible to variations as a woman’s moods.
I live in a society primarily made up of senior retired army officers, me old man being a retired colonel of 87 years.
Along with that, this being North India, where the two primary occupations are farming and the military for centuries, there is a certain awe of uniform inherent in the viewing aspect of any government officials.
And any high ranking army personnel, regardless of his status, serving or retired is “respected” not only by civilians but by other army chaps, again retired or serving.
This aspect may be portrayed with clarity, if you hear what me dad has to say:
Whenever I breach this topic, I am given a dress-down, with him saying that I know nothing about the hardships officers had to face in the war. And I should just leave the old man alone. Then h goes onto say, what if it was him? How would I feel?
And telling him that this was the exact reason I was living with him and not in my place, and that I have done my 11yrs duty in the navy before seeking premature retirement, he retorts with, have I fought any wars?!!!!!!!!
What can I say to that? Do I start a war to please me dad?
It’s a lose-lose situation all around. So I bite the bit and say, “Ours is not to question why! Ours is just to do and die!”
And yes the test is different here. Your passing depends on how well you can brow-beat the examiner.
And when you talk about photographs, I will have you know, I am a freelance photo-journalist of social issues, and carry my camera everywhere.
And about the petition? M sure no-one is gonna bell the cat!
I have informed the Deputy Commissioner, Traffic.
But to no avail. Since feudalism may have left the country on paper, but it still lives strong in the hearts of the brown babus.
Here is a typical example of locking the stable doors after the horses have been stolen; Action will be taken after an incident occurs.
*****************
@ MasterAuron
Send me your mail id n I’ll let you know
Circumstances, rules, and protocol here in India, are as susceptible to variations as a woman’s moods.
I live in a society primarily made up of senior retired army officers, me old man being a retired colonel of 87 years.
Along with that, this being North India, where the two primary occupations are farming and the military for centuries, there is a certain awe of uniform inherent in the viewing aspect of any government officials.
And any high ranking army personnel, regardless of his status, serving or retired is “respected” not only by civilians but by other army chaps, again retired or serving.
This aspect may be portrayed with clarity, if you hear what me dad has to say:
Whenever I breach this topic, I am given a dress-down, with him saying that I know nothing about the hardships officers had to face in the war. And I should just leave the old man alone. Then h goes onto say, what if it was him? How would I feel?
And telling him that this was the exact reason I was living with him and not in my place, and that I have done my 11yrs duty in the navy before seeking premature retirement, he retorts with, have I fought any wars?!!!!!!!!
What can I say to that? Do I start a war to please me dad?
It’s a lose-lose situation all around. So I bite the bit and say, “Ours is not to question why! Ours is just to do and die!”
And yes the test is different here. Your passing depends on how well you can brow-beat the examiner.
And when you talk about photographs, I will have you know, I am a freelance photo-journalist of social issues, and carry my camera everywhere.
And about the petition? M sure no-one is gonna bell the cat!
I have informed the Deputy Commissioner, Traffic.
But to no avail. Since feudalism may have left the country on paper, but it still lives strong in the hearts of the brown babus.
Here is a typical example of locking the stable doors after the horses have been stolen; Action will be taken after an incident occurs.
*****************
@ MasterAuron
Send me your mail id n I’ll let you know
tjay56
Torque Junkie
Neither do I,as I'm NOT under 30,nor over 60.But I'm a better drive than anyone else,so not really bothered tbh.lol.
picassoonwheels
Road Burner
You The Best Tjay, and If anyone says elsewise, lemme know, you hear?.....
Yours Truely,
Picasso
Yours Truely,
Picasso
In my reply to your 1st I said you had my sympathies. You most certainly still do:sad2:
Your situation did remind me slightly of a reported situation here in UK some little while back.
A woman had reported some young lads to the Police and later the father of one of them came to her door and threatened the lives of her own young children if she pursued her witness statement.
When she informed the Police of this she was told that they would not be able to protect her family:sad2::sad2:
Their advise?:amazed:
MOVE out of the area:blink:
It would seem that your alternative to the Status Qou you describe is to do the same
Your situation did remind me slightly of a reported situation here in UK some little while back.
A woman had reported some young lads to the Police and later the father of one of them came to her door and threatened the lives of her own young children if she pursued her witness statement.
When she informed the Police of this she was told that they would not be able to protect her family
:sad2::sad2:Their advise?:amazed:
MOVE out of the area:blink:
It would seem that your alternative to the Status Qou you describe is to do the same
@ glabus:
Circumstances, rules, and protocol here in India, are as susceptible to variations as a woman’s moods.
I live in a society primarily made up of senior retired army officers, me old man being a retired colonel of 87 years.
Along with that, this being North India, where the two primary occupations are farming and the military for centuries, there is a certain awe of uniform inherent in the viewing aspect of any government officials.
And any high ranking army personnel, regardless of his status, serving or retired is “respected” not only by civilians but by other army chaps, again retired or serving.
This aspect may be portrayed with clarity, if you hear what me dad has to say:
Whenever I breach this topic, I am given a dress-down, with him saying that I know nothing about the hardships officers had to face in the war. And I should just leave the old man alone. Then h goes onto say, what if it was him? How would I feel?
And telling him that this was the exact reason I was living with him and not in my place, and that I have done my 11yrs duty in the navy before seeking premature retirement, he retorts with, have I fought any wars?!!!!!!!!
What can I say to that? Do I start a war to please me dad?
It’s a lose-lose situation all around. So I bite the bit and say, “Ours is not to question why! Ours is just to do and die!”
And yes the test is different here. Your passing depends on how well you can brow-beat the examiner.
And when you talk about photographs, I will have you know, I am a freelance photo-journalist of social issues, and carry my camera everywhere.
And about the petition? M sure no-one is gonna bell the cat!
I have informed the Deputy Commissioner, Traffic.
But to no avail. Since feudalism may have left the country on paper, but it still lives strong in the hearts of the brown babus.
Here is a typical example of locking the stable doors after the horses have been stolen; Action will be taken after an incident occurs.
*****************
@ MasterAuron
Send me your mail id n I’ll let you know
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