T9's Project X

T9 man

TC ModFather
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London, UK
Car
Saab 9-3SS T9
OK, so without revealing too much of my very ambitious project, I have discovered that I will need to extend the front of the car inc chassis to accommodate the new engine and turbo set up by approximately 445mm; this is because it will be converted to RWD instead of the current FWD. I have temporarily shelved the AWD for the moment as the benefits of what I am trying to do don't quite stack up. The research does go on however as I have not ruled out AWD completely.

In laymans terms, is it particularly difficult to extend the chassis safely? The power of the new engine will be above 4 figures with X turbochargers! I realise the wings and bonnet will have to be lengthened but that's not an issue. The reason being is that I want the interior to remain untouched!!! The boot will be altered and reshaped to allow for much wider wheels and tyres.
 
This is getting into serious territory. My initial thought is will it look OK? Lengthening the car by that amount will dramatically alter its proportions. If it looks OK, then it will be OK and few people (except sad SAAB junkies) will notice. Perhaps a little work with Paintshop or similar would be worthwhile.

However, doing it to your great car is a risk. Have you thought about getting a mule and doing all of the development work on that? If and when it works and looks OK the bits can be transferred over to your car. That way, you still have use of your car (and I know this causes you grief) whilst the development work is being undertaken and your car isn't ruined if it doesn't work out.

With regard to lengthening the chassis, yes it can be done safely as long as it is done by someone who knows what they are doing. Talking to someone like Chris Issacs, who builds drag car chassis so has experience of the sort of BHP your are talking about, might be a good idea.

http://www.chris-isaacs.com/home.html

I'm guessing a tubular spaceframe front end bolted to the firewall, a bit like how most American muscle cars were built. The rest of the chassis may need strengthening, but Chris could advise on that.

http://www.superchevy.com/technical...car_parts_pro_g_front_clip_install/index.html
 
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If you extend the chassis it can't be a simple case of new front end. The wheels will need to move forward with the front end. A wide arch kit would be no problem for a decent body shop though.

Other things to consider are wil the chassis actually cope with the power? To put in blunty Saab aren't exactly known for their great handling chassis so you may even have to 'start fresh'. You could use a chassis from a different car (saw a Ford Focus body over a Skyline R33 chassis once) and then have the Saab panels re-contructed to look oem over the new chassis.
 
If you extend the chassis it can't be a simple case of new front end. The wheels will need to move forward with the front end. A wide arch kit would be no problem for a decent body shop though.

Other things to consider are wil the chassis actually cope with the power? To put in blunty Saab aren't exactly known for their great handling chassis so you may even have to 'start fresh'. You could use a chassis from a different car (saw a Ford Focus body over a Skyline R33 chassis once) and then have the Saab panels re-contructed to look oem over the new chassis.

I'm not sure I agree agout Saab's chassis' and handling. I've never driven a ropey one.
 
Wow. You really have been scribbling on the white board an awful lot. It all sounds wonderful and I can't wait to hear more about it :) I'm sure everything is possible but may cost mega wonga. But I know your philosophy on spending money on the beast. I think the host car idea is a good one. It'll prove invaluable to be able to use your car while in progress. You'll just have to think carefully about conflicting mods. For example, Your exhaust system, I presume you wouldn't transfer it over or have a copy made so you'll have to just think about howthis may affect your idea. You may need a whole new system for the rwd setup.
 
Can't the bulk head be moved back and a thinner radiator be used? Will the front wheels need to be moved as well?

Are you changing to a longitudinally mounted engine? Can a shorter gearbox make up some of the distance.
 
Im with og on this one.
It has to be better , cheaper and sensible in the short and long term to use another car as a trial.
Judging by your "plan" £££s are not an issue so build a mock up - These is no guarantee it will be done right first time anyway

That way you can keep the beast as a driveable car without decimating it with no guarantee of success.
You can always swop the bits over and you still have a car worth driving if it doesnt work.
 
Would a 9-7 be a better base for this project?

I think this misses the point, Waynne. This is T9's baby, just as the Elan is mine. Neither of us would ever consider changing the car just because it may be easier or simpler to use a different one. This is the essence of modifying.
 
So I assume the new engine is going to be bigger than a 4 pot?, it would help to know what engine your going for, even a 5pot Volvo engine should be able to go in longitudinally without resorting to lengthening the car.
 
Wow! T9, your proper going for it! a 600hp engine wasn't enough then? :lol:

Good luck with this and you have my support. This I am watching with alot of interest.

Isn't there a AWD Saab? that you can take the parts from? Doner car sounds very sensible to me, otherwise you'll have to use that bloody Ka again... :lol:
 
I was just wondering if the 9-7 front end was longer and could be narrowed to fit the 9-3 chassis?
 
long and twin turbo would suggest a v8 or straight six My guess is a v8 :toung: Volvos dont do a decent six


But they do have a rather nice V8


So..............Maybe its the 4.4 litre volvo v8 engine as in a Noble - thats twin turbo ????????


:
 
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Thank you ever so much for all the informed feedback guys! :amazed:

@ OG, yes I see where your coming from with regards to a donor car Steve. The additional length is due to the engine being positioned as it should be but driving the rear wheels. Also I intend to use a special sequential gearbox which will be modified still further. My initial aim is to try and keep everything as tight as possible under the bonnet but not to sacrifice performance because of it. This car WILL be driven on the roads and in rush hour, also do the weekly shop at Sainsbury's from time to time. It will NEVER reside in the garage only ever coming out for a Sunday morning jaunt up the road before being washed cleaned and put back to bed.

I have since called my garage and a suitable front end damaged 9-3SS is being sought for me.

@ Prince, to my knowledge Saab have always been known for their good handling as a FWD car, which is even better once you have been allowed to modify and tinker with a few items ;) I have looked at the wheel reposition issue and hopefully (hard to say until built) it will not look out of place. My aim is to try and keep the interior untouched. I will have to have some custom bits of interior trim made to accommodate the gearbox size. So new custom carpet, slightly larger gearbox tunnel to be created and modified heating and ventilation works will have to be done; Saab pack an awful lot into a very tight space.

In the early days of the project I did have a mad crazy idea of doing this all to the Beast! As I started to delve deeper and deeper into what it is that has to be done, this grew less likely with each passing week of my research.

So the Beast will remain as it is *For Now* loving cared for by it's dad and wanting for absolutely nothing! :)

Yet still something nags at me to buy another car for the duration and rip the Beast to pieces!
 
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So I assume the new engine is going to be bigger than a 4 pot?, it would help to know what engine your going for, even a 5pot Volvo engine should be able to go in longitudinally without resorting to lengthening the car.

Saab actually have a V8 model in the states! ;)
 
Wow! T9, your proper going for it! a 600hp engine wasn't enough then? :lol:

Good luck with this and you have my support. This I am watching with alot of interest.

Isn't there a AWD Saab? that you can take the parts from? Doner car sounds very sensible to me, otherwise you'll have to use that bloody Ka again... :lol:

Still struggling with the combinations Dave, Saab do an AWD car and very good it is too! I want as much of this project to be as much Saab as possible.
I am determined to create an absolute monster that can and will be used on a daily basis; to look good and to drive even better! :amuse:
 
How are you going to do the rwd conversion? You'll need something along the lines of an lsd but the drivetrain has got to be linked to the front. I can't see there being space atm.

If it was I would look at what engines will fit into the existing engine bay. Don't forget though that weight will also play a part. It's all very well sticking a massive V12 in but it's going to weigh a lot more than a 4 pot which will upset the handling. Your suspension may not be able to cope as well.
 
How are you going to do the rwd conversion? You'll need something along the lines of an lsd but the drivetrain has got to be linked to the front. I can't see there being space atm.

If it was I would look at what engines will fit into the existing engine bay. Don't forget though that weight will also play a part. It's all very well sticking a massive V12 in but it's going to weigh a lot more than a 4 pot which will upset the handling. Your suspension may not be able to cope as well.

Yes there will be an LSD, for this particular project it would be daft not too! :blink: The space for the drivetrain will have to be created. On the Saab Turbo X the tunnel is much wider on the 9-3 model than on the standard 9-3 this is because of the drivetrain and the exhaust sharing the same space; a fact shown to me last month when I was able to see the underside of both cars on the ramp next to each other at the same time.

In the states they have a V8 model and obviously suspension to suit, but American model cars are not renowned for going around corners well.
I intend mine to handle, this will not be a straight line king only!!!! I have an idea about the suspension set up but my own knowledge is very limited; so the wisdom of those who actually know what they are talking about will be sought to prevent any of those school boy errors.
This is not a flyby night project Prince! I intend to do whatever it takes to see that this project works and works well. I am very fortunate to be in a position to be financially able to see this through too completion regardless of what ever obstacles or problems I may encounter.
As I have mentioned already, I want to keep the finer details of this project on the QT as I want this to be totally unique and not have some other chap copying my dream - not until it's finished at least! ;)
 
Hats off to you Mr T sounds like a great project, a thought occurs to me, instead of lengthening the engine bay, why not remove the gearbox & shove it to the rear aka BMW styleeee? :bigsmile:
 
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Some radical thinking there T9. I can see where you are coming from and the issues you are coming up against. Without knowing the true identity of the lump in question I cannot really help with this. For the record I did convert a 1256 Vauxhall Chevette to a 1.9 Manta, this then morphed into a Rover V8. However to keep the balance I did the following in order to retain the silhouette, which was part of the racing regs, so could not lengthen the chassis or shell over standard:
  • Cut front end off including bulkhead and transmission tunnel.
  • Leave chassis rails in position.
  • Drop engine and box in desired position.
  • Fabricate space frame front end to support engine and front suspension.
  • Fabricate new firewall and transmission tunnel.
Driving position was retained, albeit a little tight around the front A pillar leg position. Gearshift position was retained.

If going transverse to longitudinal then there will be issues. The old Audi coupe was longer in this position and was easily converted to 4wd as I did some R&D back in the early 90s changing a Quattro from 4wd through to fwd and rwd by modifying the gearbox and trans just to see what was best on track.

If I was in your position I would not extend the car to accomodate the changes, it would look odd and may affect the handling, unless it is destined for the dragstrip. I would go into the cabin to retain the original silouhette. That way the balance is kept and if going rwd, a shorter propshaft/torque tube will be required, you'll need to modify the interior surely to accept this for the transmission to the rear end? Unless it has this in the floor pan already?

Whatever you go for will be done right I'm sure. Looking forward the route taken and decision making ahead!
 
Hats off to you Mr T sounds like a great project, a thought occurs to me, instead of lengthening the engine bay, why not remove the gearbox & shove it to the rear aka BMW styleeee? :bigsmile:

Thanks for the heads up Loz, I have still got loads of information that I am sifting through. Because I am not very well clued up on such things (Why I joined TC in the first place) it is a little harder to digest all of the relevant information. I shall get there one way or another ;)
 
@ Stamford, many thanks for the pearls of wisdom buddy, I have taken on-board all that you have said and I will definitely put it to good use. This I can assure you, nothing will be taken lightly or for granted and under no circumstances will short cuts be used on this project; it's the right way or no way! :)
 
mate if someone can squeeze a v6 in a mini without stretching the front. I'm sure they'll be able to fit whatever engine your after in your saab
 
herb somebody fit a v8 in the back of a mini lol my mates dad but a 'stang engine into a capri and it was a pretty long job even though both rwd, lot of parts had to be strengthened and modified
 
At first it seems odd to me, but after Stamford's post it began to click in. If you can do it without longening the chassis then better, even if that mean to custom make some drivetrain parts to fit.
I'm not an guy who can help here, but I cross my fingers for you to success. Maybe you can get some help from the guy who made his own custom car out of scratch? (I forgott the nickname and even forgott the name of the car - custom made with central positioned engine, you'll sure know which project I'm talking about.)
 
If I'm right to assume you're taking the engine from a non-Saab, then have you looked at the dimensions of what ever it's coming from? I.E. the size of the engine, drivetrain, gearbox, etc.
 
I think that was invision from the states your talking about Zwaf.
Good idea that, thanks ;)

Yes!!! Invision it is! "Rhytm" and "Next One"! Tryed to find his two topics but no luck before you tell me the name. :) If Invision can build a car out of scratch i think he could be able to help here if he's interested and got some spare time.
 
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If I'm right to assume you're taking the engine from a non-Saab, then have you looked at the dimensions of what ever it's coming from? I.E. the size of the engine, drivetrain, gearbox, etc.

I thought about it Prince, but I have decided that it will be a Saab engine, if it wasn't then it would be just another car with a big transplant and that's not what I want.
I have three engine choice options and two of them give me a much better choice of gearbox to use. The dimensions are based on my preferred choice, but this will not be rushed. After speaking with a TC car boffin this morning, I now have a few more avenues to explore ;)
 

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