ojlane
Wrench Pro
Found this review quite interesting
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/driving/used_car_reviews/article3552994.ece
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/driving/used_car_reviews/article3552994.ece
Prius vs 520d in mpg challenge
- Thread starter ojlane
- Start date
ojlane
Wrench Pro
Sorry, this should have been in general car chat.....
pgarner
TC ModFather
No worries mate moved it
HDi fun
TC ModFather
Top Gear did a similar exercise. Hybrids have a place for sure. But unless you're driving purely for fuel economy at the expense of all else then the purchase price premium is pointless. And god only knows what the servicing costs are like 5 years down the line when the whole battery of batteries needs to be replaced.
fingers
Torque Master
- Points
- 72
- Location
- North Essex
I said this when they first came out. You will spend what you save on fuel on the initial cost of the thing and on maintenence. Also, as far as the enviroment goes these things are a farce!!! It is more damaging to the atmosphere to build or dispose of one of these than it is a Hummer!!! Hybrid cars will enevitable be remembered for being clever but pointless cars.
fingers
Torque Master
- Points
- 72
- Location
- North Essex
I really going for this because I hate these things with a passion, possably more than clarkson.
This article was published on the internet by the Central Connecticut State University.
The Toyota Prius has become the flagship car for those in our society so environmentally conscious that they are willing to spend a premium to show the world how much they care. Unfortunately for them, their ultimate ‘green car’ is the source of some of the worst pollution in North America; it takes more combined energy per Prius to produce than a Hummer.
Before we delve into the seedy underworld of hybrids, you must first understand how a hybrid works. For this, we will use the most popular hybrid on the market, the Toyota Prius.
The Prius is powered by not one, but two engines: a standard 76 horsepower, 1.5-liter gas engine found in most cars today and a battery- powered engine that deals out 67 horsepower and a whooping 295ft/lbs of torque, below 2000 revolutions per minute. Essentially, the Toyota Synergy Drive system, as it is so called, propels the car from a dead stop to up to 30mph. This is where the largest percent of gas is consumed. As any physics major can tell you, it takes more energy to get an object moving than to keep it moving. The battery is recharged through the braking system, as well as when the gasoline engine takes over anywhere north of 30mph. It seems like a great energy efficient and environmentally sound car, right?
You would be right if you went by the old government EPA estimates, which netted the Prius an incredible 60 miles per gallon in the city and 51 miles per gallon on the highway. Unfortunately for Toyota, the government realized how unrealistic their EPA tests were, which consisted of highway speeds limited to 55mph and acceleration of only 3.3 mph per second. The new tests which affect all 2008 models give a much more realistic rating with highway speeds of 80mph and acceleration of 8mph per second. This has dropped the Prius’s EPA down by 25 percent to an average of 45mpg. This now puts the Toyota within spitting distance of cars like the Chevy Aveo, which costs less then half what the Prius costs.
However, if that was the only issue with the Prius, I wouldn’t be writing this article. It gets much worse.
Building a Toyota Prius causes more environmental damage than a Hummer that is on the road for three times longer than a Prius. As already noted, the Prius is partly driven by a battery which contains nickel. The nickel is mined and smelted at a plant in Sudbury, Ontario. This plant has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has used the ‘dead zone’ around the plant to test moon rovers. The area around the plant is devoid of any life for miles.
The plant is the source of all the nickel found in a Prius’ battery and Toyota purchases 1,000 tons annually. Dubbed the Superstack, the plague-factory has spread sulfur dioxide across northern Ontario, becoming every environmentalist’s nightmare.
“The acid rain around Sudbury was so bad it destroyed all the plants and the soil slid down off the hillside,” said Canadian Greenpeace energy-coordinator David Martin during an interview with Mail, a British-based newspaper.
All of this would be bad enough in and of itself; however, the journey to make a hybrid doesn’t end there. The nickel produced by this disastrous plant is shipped via massive container ship to the largest nickel refinery in Europe. From there, the nickel hops over to China to produce ‘nickel foam.’ From there, it goes to Japan. Finally, the completed batteries are shipped to the United States, finalizing the around-the-world trip required to produce a single Prius battery. Are these not sounding less and less like environmentally sound cars and more like a farce?
Wait, I haven’t even got to the best part yet.
When you pool together all the combined energy it takes to drive and build a Toyota Prius, the flagship car of energy fanatics, it takes almost 50 percent more energy than a Hummer - the Prius’s arch nemesis.
Through a study by CNW Marketing called “Dust to Dust,” the total combined energy is taken from all the electrical, fuel, transportation, materials (metal, plastic, etc) and hundreds of other factors over the expected lifetime of a vehicle. The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles - the expected lifespan of the Hybrid.
The Hummer, on the other hand, costs a more fiscal $1.95 per mile to put on the road over an expected lifetime of 300,000 miles. That means the Hummer will last three times longer than a Prius and use less combined energy doing it.
So, if you are really an environmentalist - ditch the Prius. Instead, buy one of the most economical cars available - a Toyota Scion xB. The Scion only costs a paltry $0.48 per mile to put on the road. If you are still obsessed over gas mileage - buy a Chevy Aveo and fix that lead foot. One last fun fact for you: it takes five years to offset the premium price of a Prius. Meaning, you have to wait 60 months to save any money over a non-hybrid car because of lower gas expenses.
This article was published on the internet by the Central Connecticut State University.
The Toyota Prius has become the flagship car for those in our society so environmentally conscious that they are willing to spend a premium to show the world how much they care. Unfortunately for them, their ultimate ‘green car’ is the source of some of the worst pollution in North America; it takes more combined energy per Prius to produce than a Hummer.
Before we delve into the seedy underworld of hybrids, you must first understand how a hybrid works. For this, we will use the most popular hybrid on the market, the Toyota Prius.
The Prius is powered by not one, but two engines: a standard 76 horsepower, 1.5-liter gas engine found in most cars today and a battery- powered engine that deals out 67 horsepower and a whooping 295ft/lbs of torque, below 2000 revolutions per minute. Essentially, the Toyota Synergy Drive system, as it is so called, propels the car from a dead stop to up to 30mph. This is where the largest percent of gas is consumed. As any physics major can tell you, it takes more energy to get an object moving than to keep it moving. The battery is recharged through the braking system, as well as when the gasoline engine takes over anywhere north of 30mph. It seems like a great energy efficient and environmentally sound car, right?
You would be right if you went by the old government EPA estimates, which netted the Prius an incredible 60 miles per gallon in the city and 51 miles per gallon on the highway. Unfortunately for Toyota, the government realized how unrealistic their EPA tests were, which consisted of highway speeds limited to 55mph and acceleration of only 3.3 mph per second. The new tests which affect all 2008 models give a much more realistic rating with highway speeds of 80mph and acceleration of 8mph per second. This has dropped the Prius’s EPA down by 25 percent to an average of 45mpg. This now puts the Toyota within spitting distance of cars like the Chevy Aveo, which costs less then half what the Prius costs.
However, if that was the only issue with the Prius, I wouldn’t be writing this article. It gets much worse.
Building a Toyota Prius causes more environmental damage than a Hummer that is on the road for three times longer than a Prius. As already noted, the Prius is partly driven by a battery which contains nickel. The nickel is mined and smelted at a plant in Sudbury, Ontario. This plant has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has used the ‘dead zone’ around the plant to test moon rovers. The area around the plant is devoid of any life for miles.
The plant is the source of all the nickel found in a Prius’ battery and Toyota purchases 1,000 tons annually. Dubbed the Superstack, the plague-factory has spread sulfur dioxide across northern Ontario, becoming every environmentalist’s nightmare.
“The acid rain around Sudbury was so bad it destroyed all the plants and the soil slid down off the hillside,” said Canadian Greenpeace energy-coordinator David Martin during an interview with Mail, a British-based newspaper.
All of this would be bad enough in and of itself; however, the journey to make a hybrid doesn’t end there. The nickel produced by this disastrous plant is shipped via massive container ship to the largest nickel refinery in Europe. From there, the nickel hops over to China to produce ‘nickel foam.’ From there, it goes to Japan. Finally, the completed batteries are shipped to the United States, finalizing the around-the-world trip required to produce a single Prius battery. Are these not sounding less and less like environmentally sound cars and more like a farce?
Wait, I haven’t even got to the best part yet.
When you pool together all the combined energy it takes to drive and build a Toyota Prius, the flagship car of energy fanatics, it takes almost 50 percent more energy than a Hummer - the Prius’s arch nemesis.
Through a study by CNW Marketing called “Dust to Dust,” the total combined energy is taken from all the electrical, fuel, transportation, materials (metal, plastic, etc) and hundreds of other factors over the expected lifetime of a vehicle. The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles - the expected lifespan of the Hybrid.
The Hummer, on the other hand, costs a more fiscal $1.95 per mile to put on the road over an expected lifetime of 300,000 miles. That means the Hummer will last three times longer than a Prius and use less combined energy doing it.
So, if you are really an environmentalist - ditch the Prius. Instead, buy one of the most economical cars available - a Toyota Scion xB. The Scion only costs a paltry $0.48 per mile to put on the road. If you are still obsessed over gas mileage - buy a Chevy Aveo and fix that lead foot. One last fun fact for you: it takes five years to offset the premium price of a Prius. Meaning, you have to wait 60 months to save any money over a non-hybrid car because of lower gas expenses.
Agree with the basic sentiment of the piece, but its origin is slightly different to that quoted, as far as I can gather........
Lifted from the Recorder Online
March 28, 2007
Prius Still Not Sitting Pretty
By Chris Demorro
Staff Writer
There has been quite a bit of debate regarding an opinion piece of mine entitled, “Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage.” To be honest, I couldn’t be happier with the result. I managed to get people talking about a serious issue, which I believe does not get nearly enough attention.
I am of course talking about the future of automotive energy consumption. Over the past two weeks, I have seen my name splashed across hundreds of forums, read on live radio and even discussed within earshot of myself.
Along those lines, in the interest of fair and balanced journalism, it should be noted that the CNW Marketing research “Dust to Dust,” which I cited in my article, is dubious at best. Much of the debate has centered on the lifetime mileage of the Prius versus the Hummer. The average expected lifespan for a Prius, according to the report, was 100,000 miles when, in reality, the Prius is offered in several states with a warranty up to 150,000 miles alone.
There was also a great deal of debate regarding just which Hummer was used in the CNW report. It was the original Hummer, not the H2 or H3, which may clear up the 300,000 mile lifespan expected from a Hummer. However, there are enough holes as large as this throughout the CNW report to question its objectivity.
That being said, there is still fairly substantial evidence that hybrids are not nearly as efficient; nor are they as environmentally sound as one may think. There are many cleaner, faster and sleeker alternatives out there waiting to be picked up. Cars such as the Tesla Roadster, for sale now at teslamotors. com, which is an entirely electric car that can journey up to 250 miles on a single battery charge, as well as sprinting from 0-60mph in a blistering four seconds. And to top it all off, it is available for about $30,000 if you opt to wait, rather then pay an additional $20,000 to receive the next one available. The Tesla is just one of the many options available right now and will hopefully garner more attention in the future.
Unfortunately many of these options go largely unnoticed simply because they don’t come from a major auto manufacturer. This is a large part of why I wrote the article in the first place: I believe hybrids are not going to solve our imminent energy crisis, and focusing on a platform that still requires petrol in any amount is ultimately a band-aid for what could become a mortal wound. But this is what many manufacturers are offering to us; half-assed solutions to a real problem that will affect everyone the world over. But if people are kept in the dark regarding alternatives to oil and hybrids, then by the time real alternatives are available, we may have dug ourselves an oil-lined grave.
Debate, discussion and research are the key to preventing this, and, as a journalism student, I know that I have a long way to go before considering myself an objective, balanced and eloquent journalist. That is why I am attending college, and why I have never projected myself as anything but a student. But I also feel as though I have provoked a lot of thinking outside the traditional schools of thought, and that is what I ultimately aim for.
So these are my beliefs. I wrote them down for a college newspaper and submitted them to my editor for publication. Somewhere along the line, someone picked up what I wrote and handed it to Rush Limbaugh who broadcasted it across the country. I am not an environmental nut job, nor am I a corporate-sponsored puppet. I am just a college student, trying to make a name for myself – not as a biased, irresponsible and dishonest reporter, but as a fair and balanced journalist who is trying to provoke thought and debate. I still have a great deal to learn in school, but they say experience is the best teacher, and after these two weeks, I have subscribed to that belief as well.
HDi fun
TC ModFather
The thing is you're completely correct. THe problem is that we've got so bloody carried away with planet saving that we're not seeing wood for trees now.
But trees are good and anything else is bad. 
We solve one problem and create another 3. Common sense doesn't seem to be in vogue nowadays!
We solve one problem and create another 3. Common sense doesn't seem to be in vogue nowadays!
Or, on the other hand.....
http://www.thecarconnection.com/article/1010861_prius-versus-hummer-exploding-the-myth
http://www.thecarconnection.com/article/1010861_prius-versus-hummer-exploding-the-myth
HDi fun
TC ModFather
It think the subtlety here is not whether hybrids are actually clean or not. It's more of a 'does it really matter issue' in my opinion. Let's face it, if there's only 79.5 years worth of fossil fuels in the ground then the amount of damage mankind can do is limited by that fact alone!! Once it's gone it's gone!
Which isn't to say that we shouldn't develop alternative sources of energy in the meantime as we're gonna need 'em in 79.5 years time.
I'll repeat what I posted a month or two back, something of this type- 'there's no point going around saving planets whilst simultaneously and systematically starving the people that live upon said planets as result of silly fuel prices and the consquences that this affords.'
Which isn't to say that we shouldn't develop alternative sources of energy in the meantime as we're gonna need 'em in 79.5 years time.
I'll repeat what I posted a month or two back, something of this type- 'there's no point going around saving planets whilst simultaneously and systematically starving the people that live upon said planets as result of silly fuel prices and the consquences that this affords.'
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