Jump start a petrol from a diesel engine?

wizzer

wizzer

Road Burner
Points
202
Location
Lyndhurst, Hampshire
Car
VW Golf 2.0 TDi
I recall my dad saying "Don't jump start a petrol car from a diesel one" which is a rule that sticks in my mind!

Is this true? Why is it a problem surely they all run off the same voltage batteries.
 
I think the problem is the other way round, you don't get enough current from a petrol battery to start the diesel engine.

I can't see why there would be a problem starting a petrol from a diesel as current is drawn as required and not pushed and there is a lot of capacity for cranking in a diesel battery.
 
No reason not to do this at all. It will generally be fine the other way around too. Diesel engines don't take anywhere near as much cranking as is commonly thought. Despite the higher compression ratio you have to remember that when pushing up one piston there's another one moving down which is helped by cylinder pressure.

It's the glow plugs which beat the battery hard long before it has a chance to turn the engine over so this might have something to do with this train of thought.
 
Electricity is electricity. If the jumping vehicle's battery rating exceeds the dead vehicle's battery rating (preferably by 100 CCA, IDK about EIN), everything should be fine.
 
HuntingTarg said:
Electricity is electricity. If the jumping vehicle's battery rating exceeds the dead vehicle's battery rating (preferably by 100 CCA, IDK about EIN), everything should be fine.
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DC is anyway. Once we get into the world of alternating current then things become much more interesting. This has bugger all to do with jump starting cars btw :)
 
as long as both vehicles are 12v no probs, have done many times, i make sure though that i use an earth point not the -ve terminal on both batteries. i think what your dad was meaning is that alot of early vehicles read before the 1960's, especially diesels were 6v that i remember anyways, so could do major damage to the wiring. modern diesels i have found, do need a higher cranking power battery than petrol cars but my experience is with 3L and up toyota's and nissan's. having said that i ahve still managed to jump start my son in law's toyota prado 3L 4cyl from my 84 daihatsu which puts out max 45 amps at the alternator, much to his disgust ;)
 
Quite agree. Some European cars in the 1960's were positive earth so care required there. As we this is a frequent problem! The biggest thing with jump starting is having cables that can carry the necessary current. The donor car can always be used as a surrogate charger, just wire it to the patient with the engine running for 5 minutes or so to dump some charge into the patient's battery. This is usually a signal that the patient battery is on it's way out. Diesels do batter batteries at startup, not so much due to higher compression as is commonly thought but due to the fact that glow plugs need a few seconds of high current delivery before the starter motor is even engaged.
 
HDi fun said:
DC is anyway. Once we get into the world of alternating current then things become much more interesting. This has bugger all to do with jump starting cars btw :)
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HDi fun said:
Quite agree. Some European cars in the 1960's were positive earth so care required there. As we this is a frequent problem! The biggest thing with jump starting is having cables that can carry the necessary current. The donor car can always be used as a surrogate charger, just wire it to the patient with the engine running for 5 minutes or so to dump some charge into the patient's battery. This is usually a signal that the patient battery is on it's way out. Diesels do batter batteries at startup, not so much due to higher compression as is commonly thought but due to the fact that glow plugs need a few seconds of high current delivery before the starter motor is even engaged.
Click to expand...
I will have to comment that a drained battery in an all-electric is a much bigger headache than a drained battery in anything with a fuel-burning engine.
 
modern all electric have an automatic notice that the car needs a charge,before it gets to low to move!
but now with these micro/mini turbine alternators, you can recharge anywhere!

that is how the new generation of super-electric cars will be able to go 1000miles to a tank of of fuel, with an available 1000hp!!WTH?
 
HuntingTarg said:
I will have to comment that a drained battery in an all-electric is a much bigger headache than a drained battery in anything with a fuel-burning engine.
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Definitely. You can't just hitch a ride to the nearest fuel station armed with a 5 litre can. I do hope that the full electric concept grows proper wings.
 
I thought Tesla was taking care of that? ...
That presents another problem. Between electric cars and increased commercial and industrial automation, the demand for electricity is liable to increase. And between the electrical and economic math, 'clean' energy sources are not going to supply all of it. Electric cars don't reduce energy demand, they shift it somewhere else.
 
Electric cars can be charged with electricity generated at nuclear facilities though. Much cleaner than fossil fuel cars and indeed fossil fuel electricity generation.
 
DOH! You started something now.
[Jumps up on soapbox]
Since Three-mile Island, there has been an increasing fear of nuclear energy, particularly in North America where it has been fomented and encouraged by the press. The Chernobyl catastrophe gave this fear deep roots, such that the most developed nuclear nations began chasing after much cleaner and safer, though less puissant, sources of electricity.
Two new developments in the field of nuclear engineering have produced a design that has gone largely unrecognized and unused. The combination of graphite-encased spheres as fuel elements with inert gas cooling (Nitrogen, Argon, and Helium are most favorable), have bern combined to produce a design that is INCAPABLE OF MELTDOWN DUE TO COOLANT FAILURE. Without technical detail, the phenomenon of doppler broadening allows a reactor of this design that experiences loss of coolant flow to reduce its reaction rate as it heats up, stabilizing at around 870 C (1600 F), a blistering oven, but well shortof the 1650 C required to melt structural steel.
[Gets down off of soapbox].
Why does this matter? It matters because, from my Yankee point of view anyway, fear and fanatacism are blinding the civilized peoples of the world and their governments to avenues of real progress.
 
"Why does this matter? It matters because, from my Yankee point of view anyway, fear and fanatacism are blinding the civilized peoples of the world and their governments to avenues of real progress."

You are absolutely correct. Progress is essential. Without it we'd not have cars, antibiotics etc. I am in favour of nuclear energy. There are some who think that nuclear derived electricity is somehow different from mineral derived electricity.

Others state that nuclear power stations are obvious terrorist targets.
This is odd because the reactor core is very very heavily armored.
The biggest problem with a Nuclear power station being bombed is not to do with radiation. It's to do with electricity supply being interrupted.

Going further, if I was a terrorist and planning strategic attacks, I wouldn't bother with power stations, I'd just chuck chemical/bio 'bombs' into the water reservoirs.

Let's also consider that nuclear facilities have improved too. 1950's technology is long gone.
 
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Let me first respond to that by saying I have to agree with the perception that 21st century Americans are quite daft; I get more respect from foreigners than from my own fellow citizens.
To add some clarity, nuclear reactor cores are shielded, not armored. Lead and concrete are dense, but concrete will shatter under enough explosive force, and elemental lead has a low melting point even for a metal. Still, as military targets they are tough nuts. The attraction as terror targets lies in the fact that people are frightened by "newcleer wessels", and even an unsuccesful attack can incite fear and panic, which is what terrorists are all about - disrupting the normal operation of civilization. If you watch 'Enemy of the State' (a movie that came out before the WTC/Pentagon attacks, by the way), the conclusion is telling: "If we become so afraid we start acting like them, they win."
Which brings us around to progress. ...
Progress is not a linear journey along a road. Progress is a quest. Before we can make progress we must decide how to measure it. The question posed to Alice by the Cheshire cat was "Where are you trying to go?" "I suppose I don't know." "Well then any road will take you there." Progress is more than 'more' and 'better.' Electric cars are, in themselves good things. So were petrol engines, until there were so many of them. Look at Los Angeles. If indeed, "politics is medicine for a sick state" as C.S. Lewis has said, I tend to think that either each of our respective states are either gravely ill, or are being quite overperscribed.
 
Nice philosophy on progress. The electric car thing is interesting.

Can you imagine the situation if the electric car had been invented first?

Would anyone have suggested adding a 3rd pedal, a an additional lever between the seats, a hugely complex pile of mechanical components at the front and 14 gallons of noxious explosive liquid in a tank at the back? :D
 
Well indeed - as I've always said, electric cars are not simply "green" - the electricity needs to be generated somehow. Yes, they do move pollution away from the cities and arguably to more efficient generating methods than the internal combustion engine, but until all our power comes from 0% CO2 generation you're still only moving the problem.
 
Completely agree. It's not a perfect solution. But once charging high current fast charging facilities are reasonably available I will convert. I suspect that this is possibly a couple of decades away.
 
I've seen a share of charging station in bay area parking lots. it's slowly spreading.
Actually a number of powerplant types were fielded around the beginning of the 20th century. Besides electric and gasoline, there was a cousin of the diesel that used the Brayton cycle to capture motive power from released heat rather than the force of expanding gas, and even designs that ran on steam. A local up here once built a replica of one and got a permit to take it on the interstate. Nearly 120kph - in either direction, no reverse gearing, just valves to reverse the steam flow through the turbine.
The real reason that we ended up with internal combustion engines (I.C.E.s) is Henry Ford. Ford is one of the great names of industry not because he invented or innovated anything mechanical. He didn't invent the I.C.E. - he invented the assembly line. So Ford's automobiles started being produced and sold faster and more cheaply than those of the garage and warehouse tinkerers and hand-assemblers. It shaped the entire infrastructure of car production. Now change takes much bigger investment and risk from much bigger players. GM, Honda, Toyota, and Tesla (EV-1, Insight, Prius, Model S), have all helped reshape the market, but its a technology that is imbedded in the economy and will take time to displace.
 
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HuntingTarg said:
I've seen a share of charging station in bay area parking lots. it's slowly spreading.
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We have several here too buddy and they are growing all the time which is a good thing.
My gripe is when there are ignorant drivers who park in the 6 charging bays available at one particular car park near Tower Bridge in London and not one of the damn cars is electric :(
 
T9 man said:
We have several here too buddy and they are growing all the time which is a good thing.
My gripe is when there are ignorant drivers who park in the 6 charging bays available at one particular car park near Tower Bridge in London and not one of the damn cars is electric :(
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I see this all the time. It's bloody minded arrogance too. Not just ignorance.
 
I also don't think the I.C.E. will disappear completely, nor should it. It's not a humongous change to put charging stations in at hotel parking lots and petrol stations (probably at least 15 meters/50ft. away from pumps), and as less gasoline-powered cars are mass-produced, the companies at the very top end whose products will probably be bought anyway, will likely experience less pressure to change and little or no drop in market share.
I personally look forward to a reduction in the influence of the giant oil companies and O.P.E.C. ; it would be worth paying the prices you brits and mainlanders do at the pump.
 
I frequent a parking lot where there is one space marked "Electric vehicles only". Conceivably it could become a ticketable offense, like parking in a fire lane or a handicapped spot.
 
Tesla has a good approach insofar as it's pushing out technology at the high end of the market and investing returns into further development. This is how it should work, technology filtering down from top end models into mainstream models over the course of time.

I wouldn't want a full electric Mercedes S Class based upon Renault Zoe technology.

I agree with HT (who makes a huge amount of sense in many of his musings) - the ICE will not disappear completely. There are applications suited to it. Whether petrol or diesel is immaterial.
 
T9 man said:
Not from where some of the poorer citizens of the UK are standing :(
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Well not that I think the U.K. and Europe should pay even more, but if America reduced its thirst for oil even more by having more hybrid and electric cars, more natural gas, solar turbine powerplants, and possibly in some alternate universe more nuclear electricity, North American consumption would go down, and OPEC would either raise prices or look for more sales in China and India, and that would cause U.S. dependence on Arab oil to go down. It doesn't happen because too many of my fellow citizens don't see past the price on the petrol pump.
 
i have read somewhere that Norway has close to 80% electric /hybrid cars , and plugins at 90% of the main traffic routes!
that said it is a small country 4.5mil. and with much cheap hydro/power available ,it makes sense for them!
diffenatly wouldnt work in Arabian desert countries!

Nuclear for an overall modern world seems to be the most economical way, remember when coal was top for power production, then oil came along, and now Nuc, is coming on strong!
course we could all do away with A/C ,electric heat/stoves,etc. and saves untold billions money.
maybe the people are the problem?? be hard to do away with them tho!!

some place i read a few super powerful/money people had a closed meeting to address polution and many other future problems,.

final answer for automobile polution was do away with any personal transportation vehicles,
OHYEAH that aint gonna happen in a hurry!!!! (i hope).

but its nice to see you guys got it ALL figured out,the problems of the world that is!

i kinda look at it, 1 million yrs ago there where no humans, and 1million yrs from now ,i know ther wont be any either.

live each day to the best that your ability/energy/ power will allow, and enjoy life , believe me it can be short!
 
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