Induction kit

saxoVTR1912

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Location
kilmarnock
Car
saxo 1.6 vtr
I was on ebay their an d was thiking about buying 1 of the cheaper induction kits worked out about £30 quid ut not to sure or do u think a should push the budget up and maybe buy a brand make k&n 57 i or piper cross help me please:(
 
imo whatever you buy , just make shure it sucks cold air an not hot air in the engine bay. something like a cad . there is a trophy intake for your car and it should'nt be very expensive
 
PiperX is the worst you can do. The K&N 57i isn't much better. nor is the Apollo.

@ PedroS - Heat is by far not the most important thing to avoid. There is much more to induction.
 
PiperX is the worst you can do. The K&N 57i isn't much better. nor is the Apollo.

@ PedroS - Heat is by far not the most important thing to avoid. There is much more to induction.


Perhaps you could enlighten us rather than simply trashing suggestions.

I thought that whilst you want more air you also want it cold . Of course I may be wrong - I often am :confused:
 
i dont think you are wrong SLEEPER.;) apart from the main job of filtering the air , cold air is what the engine should be getting.... i may be wrong also.:bigsmile:
 
i dont think you are wrong SLEEPER.;) apart from the main job of filtering the air , cold air is what the engine should be getting.... i may be wrong also.:bigsmile:

You are wrong!

Induction design is my daily main work alongside other components, which is the reason why I can make this specific statement. I am only for 32 years in the industries developing and researching.

The aim is to get as much quantity of air into the engine not volume. Quantity is determined by more factors than temperature.

A much more important issue is the air pressure at the pick up point, which greatly varies under the bonnet as sell as when using scoops. What it makes it even worse is that turbulence factors interfere with each other with increasing speed that often starve the engine of air with increasing speed.

Even when the air has entered the induction pipe there is plenty of scope for things to affect the quantity reaching the combustion chamber.

And one more of the bigger head aches is to get the pulse charging problem under control.

Only when all these problems are sorted it is time to look into the temperature problem.
 
???????? so you are saying that Citroen induction that they developed for their trophy competition cars is not the best option ???
remeber we are advising someone who's thinking on spending £30 or similar with a stock saxo n/a engine ... or we might as well tell him to spend hundreds on a proper induction kit and thousands on performance parts and stand alone ecu's !!!!
not very within the context is it??
 
You are saying lots of thing are wrong charliep but not what is right which with the greatest respect is easy to do and not very helpful .

All pedros wants is a reccommendation for a filter

I dont mind being wrong because i can look forward to being told how to improve an induction system.

So
I run twin turbo engine of reasonable power which runs relatively hot as most of them do.
I have the filters in an insulated box fed by ducting from the front bumper to the box as the filters are close to the turbos and exhaust

the tuner who maps and sorts my engine reccommended this because it is generally accepted info that cold air is good hot air is not ??

Very happy to be put right though
 
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^^ I too have gone a long way to adhering to the generally accepted philosophy that hot air is bad and cold air is good! As such the fitting of my own large induction system on my own little turbocharged car, took on a whole different turn while trying to get nothing but clean cool air only to it - have I been mislead then?
 
I think Charlie is saying that it's not just cold air that makes a good kit. Cold air is better for combustion because it has a higher volume of oxygen present (due to the molecules being closer together). However, part of the design is how you get the air into the intake. An engine will at some point have no air going directly in so the intake needs to have a 'reserve' available. This is why in general (very general), the bigger the intake the better it is. Factor that in with being enclosed and the quality is also better. Next part of the design would be air flow.

Also found this online:
Cold Air Intake Systems let your engine breathe in large amounts of cooler air, resulting in increased power at the wheels. Cold air intakes enhance the combustion process of your engine, which uses both oxygen and fuel. Cold air intake systems pull in more cold air, more cold air means more oxygen resulting in more usable power and torque throughout the engine's RPM range. Most Cold Air Intake systems relocate the air filter outside of the engine compartment or away from the heat of the engine for a cooler intake charge. Cold air is denser and heavier than warm air, which means that there is more oxygen in a cold cubic foot of air delivering a higher volume of air into the engine. Replacing your vehicle's stock air box with a cold air induction system removes one of the biggest restrictions on your engine.


To answer the OP's question. Post a link (you'll need 2 more posts elsewhere before this) to the kit you have in mind.
 
???????? so you are saying that Citroen induction that they developed for their trophy competition cars is not the best option ???
remeber we are advising someone who's thinking on spending £30 or similar with a stock saxo n/a engine ... or we might as well tell him to spend hundreds on a proper induction kit and thousands on performance parts and stand alone ecu's !!!!
not very within the context is it??

The induction of the trophy car and the one you were referring to in your last post look remotely similar. The trophy car induction is a piece of art work. the cheap copy is just a copy in terms of looks. I have tested on the rolling road in conjunction with other induction kits in a test on the TU1JP engine (1.1). It was down on power against stock as the worst of all tested kits. The best of the kits was 13bhp up against the trophy copy. The second worst was Piperx Viper. The K&N 57i was 2bhp up on stock, but lost torque low and mid range.

You are saying lots of thing are wrong charliep but not what is right which with the greatest respect is easy to do and not very helpful .

All pedros wants is a reccommendation for a filter

I dont mind being wrong because i can look forward to being told how to improve an induction system.

So
I run twin turbo engine of reasonable power which runs relatively hot as most of them do.
I have the filters in an insulated box fed by ducting from the front bumper to the box as the filters are close to the turbos and exhaust

the tuner who maps and sorts my engine reccommended this because it is generally accepted info that cold air is good hot air is not ??

Very happy to be put right though

I can't answer in public what is the best product for commercial reasons. It could be held against me as I am doing this professional giving some companies an unfair advantage. I can tell you only what not to do and give advise on what the right direction is.

To make any statement for improving the air intake on a non stock set-up I meed to see some pictures. You can mail/pm them to me if you want me to give you some hints.

^^ I too have gone a long way to adhering to the generally accepted philosophy that hot air is bad and cold air is good! As such the fitting of my own large induction system on my own little turbocharged car, took on a whole different turn while trying to get nothing but clean cool air only to it - have I been mislead then?

I have not at any point disputed that cold air is denser and therefore more quantity would enter the combustion chamber. However, this proves only true when all other parameters/conditions remain the same. A good kit consists of more than just drawing in cold air. It consist of drawing in quantity. And as a designer one has to determine what is the best trade of between heat, turbulences, pressure zones and dirt collection apart from dealing with the problems of correct pulse tuning and balancing the system between gas speed and free flow.

I think Charlie is saying that it's not just cold air that makes a good kit. Cold air is better for combustion because it has a higher volume of oxygen present (due to the molecules being closer together). However, part of the design is how you get the air into the intake. An engine will at some point have no air going directly in so the intake needs to have a 'reserve' available. This is why in general (very general), the bigger the intake the better it is. Factor that in with being enclosed and the quality is also better. Next part of the design would be air flow.

Also found this online:
Cold Air Intake Systems let your engine breathe in large amounts of cooler air, resulting in increased power at the wheels. Cold air intakes enhance the combustion process of your engine, which uses both oxygen and fuel. Cold air intake systems pull in more cold air, more cold air means more oxygen resulting in more usable power and torque throughout the engine's RPM range. Most Cold Air Intake systems relocate the air filter outside of the engine compartment or away from the heat of the engine for a cooler intake charge. Cold air is denser and heavier than warm air, which means that there is more oxygen in a cold cubic foot of air delivering a higher volume of air into the engine. Replacing your vehicle's stock air box with a cold air induction system removes one of the biggest restrictions on your engine.


To answer the OP's question. Post a link (you'll need 2 more posts elsewhere before this) to the kit you have in mind.

thanks Prince.

You got the point.
 
The induction of the trophy car and the one you were referring to in your last post look remotely similar. The trophy car induction is a piece of art work. the cheap copy is just a copy in terms of looks. I have tested on the rolling road in conjunction with other induction kits in a test on the TU1JP engine (1.1). It was down on power against stock as the worst of all tested kits. The best of the kits was 13bhp up against the trophy copy. The second worst was Piperx Viper. The K&N 57i was 2bhp up on stock, but lost torque low and mid range.

.
1st point . i said nothing about similar or copy did i? I DO KNOW WHAT I WAS REFERRING in my last post.i am here to learn also, but dont take me as uncultivated in terms of performance parts or engine mods.

so you're saying that a 1.1 litre engine will behave as a 1.6 vtr with the trophy intake ?or in terms of comparison between diferent engines with same induction ?
correct me if i am wrong !
SMALL diference in the size of the engines you are comparing.1.1 against 1.6...
another SMALL diference, 1.1 is maped by Citroen to be just another reliable and economic engine and the 1.6 it is a sports model with a ecu management for performace!
another SMALL diference : the 1.1 is 8 valves and the 1.6 is 16 valves.

doesn't it make the test you carried out on the 1.1 a bit disproportionate against the vtr ?
Also ,as far as i believe the air dynamics of the intake on a dyno is not as driving on the road.... is it?!

if you do believe i am wrong , i am here to learn. but untill evidence to the contrary i will stick to my believes.


amount of air is important as is the flow rate as is the temperature and the purity of that same air going to the engine .

i think we all know that , but for the matter , we are here to give some advise to a guy that wants to spend litle money..... i could tell him to go and buy expensive , but he's asking for something "cheap".
one more thing i learn on the world of engine tuning. mods might not work well on your engine and do the job they are intended to do on mine.


other question.
how much for the best intake kit "in test" ?

sorry any misspellings.
 
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To start with, there is no cheap performance tuning.

Spending 30 pounds on a 1.6 expecting to get something worth the while is like going to the best restaurant in town and ordering a bag of chips.

Maybe it has not rung through to young ones that maxpower went down the drain because of exactly this kind of thinking. anything labelled performance tuning will just increase power and it doesn't cost anything either.

The guy asked for whether going further than the £30. The 571 is at least £70 and the Piperx at least £80.

In your first post you mentioned the trophy kit. The trophy kit is very expensive. whjat is available is some poor copies.

I have conducted tests on many thousand engines. From experience i can safely claim that the trophy copy will flow as bad on a 1.6 as it does on a 1.1.

I don't know why you are trying to lecture me about things I do on a daily basis when you don't. I know what the Saxo re-maps are. I own and use mapping hardware and software. I make regular rolling road evaluations as well as track timing and quarter mile/acceleration testing. I conduct my tests in Europe and Asia in different places on a regular basis. I conduct long term testing. The data from the rolling road and from the road is regularly compared. If this is not enough to reach conclusions - then tell me what is?

The best kit was at the time £167, which still was much cheaper than the CDA.

from the performance point of view I can't advise to go and buy a induction for £30. this would be poor advise. My advise is to rather safe the money for something else.

If he really want to do some performance tuning then he needs to spend more than that.
 
To start with, there is no cheap performance tuning.

Spending 30 pounds on a 1.6 expecting to get something worth the while is like going to the best restaurant in town and ordering a bag of chips.

Maybe it has not rung through to young ones that maxpower went down the drain because of exactly this kind of thinking. anything labelled performance tuning will just increase power and it doesn't cost anything either.

The guy asked for whether going further than the £30. The 571 is at least £70 and the Piperx at least £80.

In your first post you mentioned the trophy kit. The trophy kit is very expensive. whjat is available is some poor copies.

I have conducted tests on many thousand engines. From experience i can safely claim that the trophy copy will flow as bad on a 1.6 as it does on a 1.1.

I don't know why you are trying to lecture me about things I do on a daily basis when you don't. I know what the Saxo re-maps are. I own and use mapping hardware and software. I make regular rolling road evaluations as well as track timing and quarter mile/acceleration testing. I conduct my tests in Europe and Asia in different places on a regular basis. I conduct long term testing. The data from the rolling road and from the road is regularly compared. If this is not enough to reach conclusions - then tell me what is?

The best kit was at the time £167, which still was much cheaper than the CDA.

from the performance point of view I can't advise to go and buy a induction for £30. this would be poor advise. My advise is to rather safe the money for something else.

If he really want to do some performance tuning then he needs to spend more than that.
You really do think your it don't you, we have had no proof of your qualifications, just you spouting off YOUR OPINIONS on all the threads you post on, before I or anyone take you seriously lets know more about you instead of all this hints at what you do for a living, and I'm surprised that you only drive a couple of Alfas, I would expect someone of your stature would be driving some sort of Ferrari at the least.
 
nevermind... far from my intentions to give you a lecture charliep....
you want me to agree in something i don't when i just expect you to convince me other wise.
comon sense is a good rule when advising . like anything else.about the trophy intake i could tell you can buy a trophy intake on the main dealer but theres no point in argument with you because it looks its not possible to buy from citroen , only poor quality copies around...
 
I bet the OP has run a mile!

Am I the only one making sense of all this? To summarise the above into one sentence is 'you get what you pay for'. I 100% agree with Charlie that these cheap induction kits are pointless (unless you just want some noise and don't care about performance). You are much better off with the stock filter and maybe a panel filter. There is also nothing wrong with Alfas as maybe that's what he likes.

@Charlie. Maybe you could write a 'What Makes A Good Intake' thread for us?

Now let's keep this thread on topic and keep any debates friendly.
 
@Charlie. Maybe you could write a 'What Makes A Good Intake' thread for us?

Indeed and a +1 from me! I would also like to know what manufacturers of quality Induction Kits you recommend along with the relevant model numbers etc; after all, what good is technical theory if no body has a clue what to buy and who to buy it from! :blink: I look forward to your forth coming write up CP.
 
You really do think your it don't you, we have had no proof of your qualifications, just you spouting off YOUR OPINIONS on all the threads you post on, before I or anyone take you seriously lets know more about you instead of all this hints at what you do for a living, and I'm surprised that you only drive a couple of Alfas, I would expect someone of your stature would be driving some sort of Ferrari at the least.

+1

In fact I was going to post something like this this but thought no I will be non confrontational (for once :D)

The point we mean ( i think) is that this is not a forum where there is a minimum knowledge requirement .

Not everyone knows how to map an ecu or understands the difference between dwell and lift but some do.
Threads and replies are therefore on a different level from one thread to another.

So on here a simple question about a stock saxo is as relevant as one about say mine or claymores cars which are a tad more tweaked.

And they are therefore entitled to an answer they can undestand not just to be told their idea is rubbish (or similar) So if it is below your level dont reply .

Instead how about a nice thread about one of your cars . Im sure it would would be a good read.
 
You really do think your it don't you, we have had no proof of your qualifications, just you spouting off YOUR OPINIONS on all the threads you post on, before I or anyone take you seriously lets know more about you instead of all this hints at what you do for a living, and I'm surprised that you only drive a couple of Alfas, I would expect someone of your stature would be driving some sort of Ferrari at the least.

you attack me on your opinion. what qualifications have you got? And where is your proof that what you suggest is the right solution? Have you tested them?

Unlike you I made the invitation to prove it before your own eyes at my cost.

What has a Ferrari got to do with my job? Not everyone is ion need to drive an overpriced show piece. I buy a car I like and modify it till it suits my liking. Something every performance enthusiast does. How do you know that I like a Ferrari? I hate the guts of Ferrari.

To come back to the topic: What concrete advise are you giving to the OP?

nevermind... far from my intentions to give you a lecture charliep....
you want me to agree in something i don't when i just expect you to convince me other wise.
comon sense is a good rule when advising . like anything else.about the trophy intake i could tell you can buy a trophy intake on the main dealer but theres no point in argument with you because it looks its not possible to buy from citroen , only poor quality copies around...

I don't convince people at all. I can only bring facts and everyone has to decide for themselves what to do with it.

I am an engineer, not a politician! No need to get popular with people.

I bet the OP has run a mile!

Am I the only one making sense of all this? To summarise the above into one sentence is 'you get what you pay for'. I 100% agree with Charlie that these cheap induction kits are pointless (unless you just want some noise and don't care about performance). You are much better off with the stock filter and maybe a panel filter. There is also nothing wrong with Alfas as maybe that's what he likes.

@Charlie. Maybe you could write a 'What Makes A Good Intake' thread for us?

Now let's keep this thread on topic and keep any debates friendly.

In the light of the reactions so far, I wonder whether there is any point?

+1

In fact I was going to post something like this this but thought no I will be non confrontational (for once :D)

The point we mean ( i think) is that this is not a forum where there is a minimum knowledge requirement .

Not everyone knows how to map an ecu or understands the difference between dwell and lift but some do.
Threads and replies are therefore on a different level from one thread to another.

So on here a simple question about a stock saxo is as relevant as one about say mine or claymores cars which are a tad more tweaked.

And they are therefore entitled to an answer they can undestand not just to be told their idea is rubbish (or similar) So if it is below your level dont reply .

Instead how about a nice thread about one of your cars . Im sure it would would be a good read.

Maybe rather than assuming I have the urge to rubbish other people's ideas you could read it with an open mind. The way some of you guys are flaming me actually could badly backfire on you! What if I all of a sudden bring up the evidence?

And now my question to all flamers:

What have you got to offer as a solution for the OP? Anything other than hear-say? Have you got concrete proof, that is proof you have witnessed yourself on accepted test equipment?

If you have then I will shut up! Up to then I trust the results we had on our rolling road and drag strip testing.
 
Gentlemen, Lets keep the banter and discussions friendly please! There is no need for any frayed tempers or bruised egos putting in an appearance on this website!

Many thanks for your help guys!

T9 man.
 
You so miss the point charliep

I and claymore never offered a solutiom .
For my part its because I dont know or profess to know enough about that specific car to give a helpful reply SO I DONT GIVE ONE

You however say you do but simply tell him this is bad and that is bad without offering your opinion as to what would be good
When anyone puts themselves up an an authority and YOU DID a postive amswer is surely a requirement once you make your reply negative

I personally have not and do not doubt your knowledge I am simply suggesting you use it if you are going to get involved in the thread.
 
I for one for definitely be interested in reading it. I'm sure plenty of other members would be too.

I would be very interested in reading it also and I have already stated so!

The point that you are missing here CP, is that it is very easy to misinterpret someone's true meaning or intentions using this kind of forum media. Lets just get on with doing something positive here, which I am sure you can bring with you to the forum by way of an instructive thread! If you can take onboard some of the more constructive comments made by our other respected members, then the point you are trying to make may come across a little easier for us to understand you ;)
 
You so miss the point charliep

I and claymore never offered a solutiom .
For my part its because I dont know or profess to know enough about that specific car to give a helpful reply SO I DONT GIVE ONE

You however say you do but simply tell him this is bad and that is bad without offering your opinion as to what would be good
When anyone puts themselves up an an authority and YOU DID a postive amswer is surely a requirement once you make your reply negative

I personally have not and do not doubt your knowledge I am simply suggesting you use it if you are going to get involved in the thread.

On Saxo 1.6 if nothing is in the way (they change quite often during production cycle) come out (against flow) at 60 mm followed by 90 degree bend. !00mm after bend reduce to 50mm and open up again to 60mm. 90degree elbow down,then 90 degree elbow to near side into place between shrouding, bumper and wing, where the filter will be placed. Before the filter opend up to 3" or 76.2mm. Total length preferably just over 1200mm.

This will gain the most torque possible and good peak power increase.Problem is that it can't be done on all Saxos as they have in some during production some obstacles.

Can be either made of steel/aluminium with silicone joiner or silicone. Silcone is much easier to fit, but should be preferably one piece. SSE can do the job.

Filter preferably is a twin cone filter element.
 

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