Engine swap question V6 or I4 FWD

[Aaron113]

Hello fellow petrolheads, i have a rather meek question about engine swap choice, the car in question is a Peugeot 206 which i would like to mod for my own enjoyment.

The contenders that i have in mind are, starting from biggest to smallest, the stock PSA v6 engine ES9J4S (NA~210hp), stock PSA EW10J4S (NA~177hp), any 4cyl 1.8T or 2.0T from VAG line with cca 200+hp (maybe even a 5cyl engine). Stupid ideas include keeping my diesel engine to tune for 160hp and let it be, which is relatively easy, or, please dont close the thread, a renesis rotary swap.

My concerns are this, with a v6 its a big lump of metal to put in a fwd tiny car and thats about it, i chose it mainly for the fun of having the same make of model and engine that was never paired from factory (+ i would probably go for an automatic gearbox combination just for cruising around which is extra weight in front which im unsure of if it's near or beyond too heavy).

The 2 first NA options are mainly for the simplicity of not having a turbo and all the piping that comes with it (+ reliability/maintenance cost) but you never know how one can go crazy later in life. What bothers me with this idea would be the naturally aspirated part, living in a mountain region means higher altitude and, if im not wrong, that means a lesser atmospheric pressure which leads to less power the higher you go, not completely sure about the ratio though.

While not exactly a big fan of volkswagen, there is a huuge aftermarket for their turbo petrol engines i cant ignore, not to mention the information floating around if i ever experience a hiccup + they can be quite powerful with not much money, sometimes even reliable.

As for the stupid ideas, i can tune the existing diesel engine and be done with it yesterday but the short gears and black smoke here and there and no real sounds coming out of the back pipe other than someone having an asthma attack are kind of a turn off for me(+ the insane amount of torque that can hulk-smash anything and everything for the hell of it). #nodieselhate

The other stupid idea, i like the idea of a NA rotary swap, its not exactly fuel efficiency or reliability but the novelty of it, its just exotic and semi-nuts and i kinda like it. Not to mention a lighter front end which may or may not improve handling, not exactly sure about that.

I would appreciate all the input i can get, my aim is a balanced car, nothing too crazy, somewhere in the range of 200-300hp (i doubt the grip would even exist past 300 on a fwd but...), preferably reliable if taken care of properly and driven properly. I dont travel vast distances yearly so it gives me a lot of room for maintenance. I'm aware of issue like making custom engine mounts, tranny adapters and the rest, its not lost on me, in any case, looking forward to some help on this topic.

 

[thexav]

I love your thinking, I would say keep it Peugeot, the French/Euro cars often have weird sizes, which is typical going from metric to non metric.

You'll need a drivetrain/transmission and aftermarket ECU.

The 2.0 HDi engine is nicely tunable with a remap and has been dropped into a 206 so it can be done.

Heavier engines will require suspension tweaks and braking mods, and the extra weight will effectively suck some of your power.

 

[Aaron113]

Yeah, my wife isnt exactly fond of my thinking lol, anyway, if i were to go down the Peugeot route i would face an interesting fork in my endeavor, a standard 4cyl GTI engine on these from factory makes only about 130hp but the one i want is a special edition that has about 180hp, the only way i can obtain one is by a stroke of luck or buying a whole newer 307 model with the engine in it, which is a tad bit expensive.

On the other hand, that special edition engine did come in a 206 from factory and is probably the last 4cyl Peugeot performance petrol engine worth its salt to date, which means i could get easy OEM parts and it would be treated as a factory made stock-ish car in a sense.

All in all, its a difficult engine to find, all i can do is buy one of the handful of cars in questionable condition in a very wide area and i cant import it from somewhere either, legally that is.

The other option is the widely used petrol v6 seen in many renaults, citroens and peugeots respectively. Started its life with 190hp, later 210 in a revision, so its okay-ish. It was put into the Clio v6 edition at one time but as a mid engine layout. #trivia

I like it just because its a V6 and there are plenty of them laying around for cheap, however, im tempted to swap it with an automatic gearbox for shits and giggles, not looking to break lap records or landing in a ditch because of oversteer and stuff either, but, im just laying it out there for someone to come along and confirm my thoughts like "no, don't do it, it's too heavy for a fwd" or "take the meds, get some help" and things like that.

With all this said, its a relatively good engine, reliable in almost every sense of the word, porting the head for extra set of ponies might be fun in the distant imaginary future as well.

Not gonna lie though, im not a fan of swapping an hdi for an hdi, if it comes down to a swap im going for a petrol anything.

 

[Aaron113]

I forgot to mention a few points of interest

- Any help with which VW 1.8t or 2.0t would be the best go-to option or even the famous 5cyl designs would be greatly appreciated as im not fluent in german petrol engines, engine code wise and aftermarket wise.

- Any advice, tips/tricks from people that either have a factory transverse fwd V6 car or have built one is also welcome.

Please share your experience so i dont end up making the wrong choice

 

[BMWKid05]

Hello fellow petrolheads, i have a rather meek question about engine swap choice, the car in question is a Peugeot 206 which i would like to mod for my own enjoyment.

The contenders that i have in mind are, starting from biggest to smallest, the stock PSA v6 engine ES9J4S (NA~210hp), stock PSA EW10J4S (NA~177hp), any 4cyl 1.8T or 2.0T from VAG line with cca 200+hp (maybe even a 5cyl engine). Stupid ideas include keeping my diesel engine to tune for 160hp and let it be, which is relatively easy, or, please dont close the thread, a renesis rotary swap.

My concerns are this, with a v6 its a big lump of metal to put in a fwd tiny car and thats about it, i chose it mainly for the fun of having the same make of model and engine that was never paired from factory (+ i would probably go for an automatic gearbox combination just for cruising around which is extra weight in front which im unsure of if it's near or beyond too heavy).

The 2 first NA options are mainly for the simplicity of not having a turbo and all the piping that comes with it (+ reliability/maintenance cost) but you never know how one can go crazy later in life. What bothers me with this idea would be the naturally aspirated part, living in a mountain region means higher altitude and, if im not wrong, that means a lesser atmospheric pressure which leads to less power the higher you go, not completely sure about the ratio though.

While not exactly a big fan of volkswagen, there is a huuge aftermarket for their turbo petrol engines i cant ignore, not to mention the information floating around if i ever experience a hiccup + they can be quite powerful with not much money, sometimes even reliable.

As for the stupid ideas, i can tune the existing diesel engine and be done with it yesterday but the short gears and black smoke here and there and no real sounds coming out of the back pipe other than someone having an asthma attack are kind of a turn off for me(+ the insane amount of torque that can hulk-smash anything and everything for the hell of it). #nodieselhate

The other stupid idea, i like the idea of a NA rotary swap, its not exactly fuel efficiency or reliability but the novelty of it, its just exotic and semi-nuts and i kinda like it. Not to mention a lighter front end which may or may not improve handling, not exactly sure about that.

I would appreciate all the input i can get, my aim is a balanced car, nothing too crazy, somewhere in the range of 200-300hp (i doubt the grip would even exist past 300 on a fwd but...), preferably reliable if taken care of properly and driven properly. I dont travel vast distances yearly so it gives me a lot of room for maintenance. I'm aware of issue like making custom engine mounts, tranny adapters and the rest, its not lost on me, in any case, looking forward to some help on this topic.

full send it with a v6 to have maybe the best time of your life

 

[Aaron113]

lol i appreciate your heartfelt suggestion

 

[obi_waynne]

The older VAG group 1.8T AGU engine is pretty solid and good for around 350hp, if you go 2.0TFsi then the BUL engine which outputs around 225 stock is the strongest.

The 2.5 TFSi 5 pot engines are still quite expensive but do give really good power gains.

For most VAG group engines I would recommend the KO4 turbo, or KO3s if you are sticking with a stock turbo.

We have quite a bit of tuning info on these engines on our site, so use the search option and you'll dig up some gems of knowledge I've picked up over the years.

VAG engines come in transverse and longitudinal layouts, so you should find a suitable candidate.

 

[Aaron113]

Thanks obi, i've read a lot of the posts here and ive gotta say you guys did a tremendous job on providing info for your regular gearheads. I'm quite grateful for all of it because it led me to other things so now i can do my research more accurately.

The AGU i remember a few years back riding shotgun in it, slightly modified cca stage 1, the car could go, and i mean go really good. I doubt i'd have luck finding one still in good shape but hope remains , i don't know much about the newer ones but i do dig the 2nd gen S3 audi, quite the numbers on it.

Btw, since you know so many things, if you could help me with my v6 vs i4 route dilemma, your thoughts (or anybody else's opinion for that matter), i would appreciate it greatly.

I'll try and keep it short, in the v6 case(es9j4s), can be found anywhere, stock power is ~210hp, with stage 1 mods maybe 220-240hp, i like the simplicity of no turbo piping but it's about +80kg weight difference. Being NA means ~1% less power for every ~100m of elevation (or so im told) and my intent on using an automatic gearbox for leisure cruising means bonus 30kg difference in weight of transmission, grand total 110kg more weight while doubling the power (car being sub 1000 kilo), but then again im not going to make lap records, its just for my enjoyment.

In the i4 case, same weight category, maybe in some case a few kilos heavier but you have a turbo, piping to do, most of the obtainable ones go up to 180hp stock, while being strong, there is that lingering reliability question after some time when something is going to fail depending how high of a power you're running. Going down the path of forged internals to have stable high power is a bit of an overkill money-wise + failed turbo costs and similar things etc etc.

I may have forgot that i want it to be my daily so that might change things a bit...

TLDR:
NA V6, 2-2.5x power, +100ish kg, power on demand, luxury in traffic jams with autobox, daily driver
any I4, 2-3x power, same-same weight, destroying the clutch doing constant N-1st-N in traffic jams, possibly pushing too much power, not quite a daily

please do correct me if my view/thought process is wrong

 

[Aaron113]

Fast forward a couple of months of hobby research and planning i managed to refine my ideas into 2 somewhat concise designs. I've come to appreciate how nice it is here and how people are enthusiastic about car stuff because many of the other sites i've asked around were downright toxic in response to a simple dialog or just repetitive naysayers of all kinds and shapes, but i digress.

The 2 contender ideas are both stock options to a degree, one is a PSA NA V6 210hp automatic fun cruise/trip car and the other is a 1.8T I4 (probably manual) daily fun car.

My concerns about the v6 idea are mostly it being nose heavy so much so that i feel like if i let anyone else drive it, that person might just understeer into his next life, not much to go on based on individual experiences from other owners/drivers of that specific engine but its use is widespread on the PSA range due to reliability so thats a plus, i might opt for a manual in the end if the wiring, pedals and fabrication proves to be too much of a hassle (which it probably will and might save some weight going manual too)

As for 1.8T, not much to say, im looking into sourcing a AGU or any of the mk1 TTs like the 225 (people like to crash them a lot here), being a clown that i am sometimes i just might take the chance and turn it into quattro but then again the haldex of early 2000s might not be a smart choice long term + its not quite an awd from what i could learn and see unless you modify it further.

Any input on these thoughts of mine is welcome, no need to hold back on feedback or plain correcting my assumptions. The approach for both is bone stock transplant of hardware and wires as much as it would allow, fab work to make it all fit, basically it would look like a 206 but underneath it would be a whole other car, might just call it a mild sleeper since it would be way more powerful than a stock one ever was.

Looking forward to replies