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Double Clutching

Discussion in 'General car Chat' started by Prince, 9 November 2008.

  1. Prince

    Prince Torque King

    Messages:
    6,309
    From:
    Northampton, England
    Car:
    BMW E36 318is Coupe
    What does everybody think to double clutching? Does anybody here practice it?
     
  2. pgarner

    pgarner TC ModFather Moderator

    Messages:
    16,522
    From:
    Lockerbie, SW Scotland
    Car:
    Octy smoke machine
    tried it a couple of time i struggled with balancing the revs after lifting the clutch the second time.

    never even used to really use the clutch in my prelude easy enough to pull out and put in next gear without touching the clutch, just had to let off the go pedal
     
  3. HDi fun

    HDi fun TC ModFather

    Messages:
    15,384
    From:
    Buckinghamshire UK
    Car:
    Passat 2.0 TDi
    I often use this technique. Not the heel and toe one - that is needless if you plan your braking properly.

    Going down the box, which I usually do sequentially, it's not necessary. But if you go from 5 to 2 then picking up the revs in Neutral (with clutch pedal released) helps the syncho cones in their plight to smooth the changes.

    Going up I never skip cogs so no need.

    The best use of it is when changing from foward to reverse and vice-versa. Pick up the clutch in Neutral and get rid of those crunching and grinding noises. Some cars now a synchromesh reverse so that means it's not required.

    AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION is the answer. By far and away the best way to drive.
     
  4. Massive

    Massive Torque Master

    Messages:
    897
    From:
    Weir
    Car:
    Clio 172 Cup
    i keep my accelerator flat to the floor, then get a nice jump forward when i put it into next gear, dont really doulbe clutch though
     
  5. turbonutter69

    turbonutter69 TC Pro Founder Moderator

    Messages:
    18,906
    From:
    Alone in the dark.
    Car:
    Insignia SRI.
    I've settled right down on doing this cause of me new driveshafts.(trying not to snap another lol) I still do it in some cases. But very rarely now unless i'm havin a play with someone in another car lol.....
     
  6. obi_waynne

    obi_waynne Administrator Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    40,272
    From:
    Deal, Kent UK
    Car:
    A3 2.0 TDI
    On a spirited drive I do this on the downchange. It's just not worth doing on the up though. It sounds great. I think that Bullit has a scene where you hear a double clutch change and it sounds awesome.
     
  7. bunney

    bunney Wrench Pro

    Messages:
    23
    From:
    cornwall
    Car:
    clio1.9di
    i have tried countless times but i really struggle i blame it on my inexperiance. My mum tends to do it alot
     
  8. HDi fun

    HDi fun TC ModFather

    Messages:
    15,384
    From:
    Buckinghamshire UK
    Car:
    Passat 2.0 TDi
    Massive: "i keep my accelerator flat to the floor, then get a nice jump forward when i put it into next gear, dont really doulbe clutch though"

    Sounds like you need a faster car
     
  9. obi_waynne

    obi_waynne Administrator Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    40,272
    From:
    Deal, Kent UK
    Car:
    A3 2.0 TDI
    Is that called Flat footing?
     
  10. UtK

    UtK Torque Junkie

    Messages:
    150
    From:
    Glasgow Scotland
    Car:
    Ford Fiesta Zetec S
    double clutching?

    (omg i just asked a noob question:embarrest::embarrest::embarrest::embarrest::embarrest:)
     
  11. obi_waynne

    obi_waynne Administrator Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    40,272
    From:
    Deal, Kent UK
    Car:
    A3 2.0 TDI
  12. Chris Green

    Chris Green Torque Junkie

    Messages:
    165
    From:
    West London
    Car:
    SEAT Leon 2.0l TDi
    I can't help feeling that there'd be a world of difference between practising your double-declutching in a non-synchro box compared to a modern synchro job. In the synchro version, the synchros would hide the fact that you weren't doing it right, whereas a non-synchro box would leave you under no misapprehension whatsoever!

    I might be old, but I'm not that old. It was an uncle who learned to drive in WWII on army trucks that told me about it.
     
  13. HDi fun

    HDi fun TC ModFather

    Messages:
    15,384
    From:
    Buckinghamshire UK
    Car:
    Passat 2.0 TDi
    That's fair. It was essential with old crash boxes (ie. no synchromesh at all) Otherwise you'd never get the gear you wanted at all. It's still a useful technique though and can lighten the load and wear on the syncho cones that otherwise have to correct the gears meshing speeds without assistance.

    Heel and toe is the same tehnique but with the brakes being applied by the right toe whilst the heel of the right foot applies pressure to the accelerator pedal in order to increase engine speed during the process.

    Modern brakes are effective enough that you really can leave it very late to brake and get your changing done first.

    Or, brake first to achieve your desired speed and then swap gears to match your new speed.

    Anticipation is really the key, how fast or moreso, how SLOWly do you really need to be going for a particular situation?

    Why brake from 80 to 20mph when you could carry on quite happily at 45?
     
  14. prevtec

    prevtec Pro Tuner

    Messages:
    2,128
    From:
    ireland
    Car:
    prelude 2.2vtec jap
    your clutch wont last long mate
     
  15. HDi fun

    HDi fun TC ModFather

    Messages:
    15,384
    From:
    Buckinghamshire UK
    Car:
    Passat 2.0 TDi
    No, it won't.
     
  16. obi_waynne

    obi_waynne Administrator Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    40,272
    From:
    Deal, Kent UK
    Car:
    A3 2.0 TDI
    NB: Heel and toe can be done without a double clutch. They are not the same thing ;)

    You can blip the throttle in with the clutch down.

    Heel and toe allows you to match braking with a throttle blip to get the right gear in a more fluid manner.
     
  17. herb

    herb modherbrator Moderator

    Messages:
    4,055
    From:
    west midlands
    Car:
    Seat Leon Cupra
    can i just ask why is double clutching needed ??? my old man used to have to do it on the old fire trucks in the air force but why does the modern day car need this ???
     
  18. turbonutter69

    turbonutter69 TC Pro Founder Moderator

    Messages:
    18,906
    From:
    Alone in the dark.
    Car:
    Insignia SRI.
    A modern car does not require you to use this technique but quite alot of drivers do. Mainly motorcylcists as it makes for a smooth change going down the box. I use it purely for the engine noise on upchanges but use it for downchanges for smoothness...
     
  19. herb

    herb modherbrator Moderator

    Messages:
    4,055
    From:
    west midlands
    Car:
    Seat Leon Cupra
    so its the same as down changing gear while braking in a car
    keeping the foot slightly on the accelerator for smoothness i saw jason plato do it on 5th gear but not heel and toe but with the broad part of the foot
     
  20. prevtec

    prevtec Pro Tuner

    Messages:
    2,128
    From:
    ireland
    Car:
    prelude 2.2vtec jap
    do you know when you have the clutch in and the revs up ( ready to spin wheels)
    and when you let go the clutch pedal, that bite when it hits

    8 minutes of that bite and your clutch is worn out
    somrthing to think about for those who abuse the clutch

    now thats a normal clutch, racing clutches are different


    new topic
    who knows how to drive without wrecking the clutch??
    and i mean get a long long time out of 1
    this has to do with normal driving, from hill starts to gear changes up and down, reversing. even driving the ring out of the car shouldnt destroy the clutch if you know how

    there is a knack to it
     
  21. HDi fun

    HDi fun TC ModFather

    Messages:
    15,384
    From:
    Buckinghamshire UK
    Car:
    Passat 2.0 TDi
    There's no point whatsoever in 'blipping' the throttle with the clutch pedal down as you're not speeding up the main shaft of the gearbox. So the synchromesh cones still have to do all the work. All you'll achieve is a slower gearchange and, maybe add 5 yards to the life expectancy of the clutch plate linings.
     
  22. prevtec

    prevtec Pro Tuner

    Messages:
    2,128
    From:
    ireland
    Car:
    prelude 2.2vtec jap
    true for ya hdi
    why dont people just drive normal???

    the only time i double clutch or actually dont care about a clutch is when i have to perform a emergancy stop

    shift down the gears to 2nd and pump the clutch in and out couple of times
    although if i had abs, i would just jam on
     
  23. HDi fun

    HDi fun TC ModFather

    Messages:
    15,384
    From:
    Buckinghamshire UK
    Car:
    Passat 2.0 TDi
    I try to avoid emergency braking. As we all try to do so. I've not owned a car without ABS since 1997. It's strange that you have to unlearn pedal pressure restraint and replace it with brutally standing on the thing.

    ABS or not , don't muck around with downchanges in that situation. Just control the braking as best you can - clutch pedal down same time as brake pedal.

    With ABS and EBD and ESP and all the other stuff, just stand on the brake pedal and let the car sort out the rest. Trust me, it works. Far better than anyone imagines it could.
     
  24. prevtec

    prevtec Pro Tuner

    Messages:
    2,128
    From:
    ireland
    Car:
    prelude 2.2vtec jap
    your right about that 1 with the abs
    but its just a reaction i have with no abs,swerving out of the way and braking with no abs isnt an option, so i try and stop the car as fast as i can

    ive had to do it a few times, and find what i say works for me
    and the end of the day mate,all that new saftey equippment dosent matter if you can drive properley, it helps yes, but its you in control and your actions at the end of the day, is what counts
     
  25. Chris Green

    Chris Green Torque Junkie

    Messages:
    165
    From:
    West London
    Car:
    SEAT Leon 2.0l TDi
    I've now owned 11 cars since 1971, and only once had to have work done to a clutch - even then it was the thrust bearing I'd worn out, not the plates. I do a lot of town driving, with a lot of gear changes, but I take a pragmatic view when in a jam not to blast away from every green light in sight. Of course every change takes its toll on the thrust bearing, but not every change needs to burn the clutch.

    I'd hazard a guess that my up-changes aren't the culprit when it comes to plate wear, since I only really slip it in first gear. If there's really is a knack to it, it's making sure that engine revs and gearbox speed are the same as the clutch re-engages (hence this thread about double-declutching). If I'm honest, I'm not so good at down-changes, but then I don't practice anything fancy apart from easing the revs up, as I let the clutch up.

    Clutch life will also be affected by how long you spend in high gears - if you spend your life on a motorway in lighter traffic, the clutch is likely to last for, well, donkey's years. My Golf Gti's clutch was still working fine when I sold it with 120K on the clock, and that's even with 75% of its miles being done in traffic.

    Mind you, I just traded in a C4 diesel 2.0 with 6 gears - this was just starting to show signs of slipping in top if you floored the pedal at around its maximum torque speed. So I guess that's another factor - how much power are you trying to stuff through it even when it's fully engaged?
     
    Last edited: 12 November 2008
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