Double Clutching

pgarner

TC ModFather
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417
From
Lockerbie, SW Scotland
Car
Octy smoke machine
tried it a couple of time i struggled with balancing the revs after lifting the clutch the second time.

never even used to really use the clutch in my prelude easy enough to pull out and put in next gear without touching the clutch, just had to let off the go pedal
 

HDi fun

TC ModFather
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637
From
Buckinghamshire UK
Car
Passat 2.0 TDi
I often use this technique. Not the heel and toe one - that is needless if you plan your braking properly.

Going down the box, which I usually do sequentially, it's not necessary. But if you go from 5 to 2 then picking up the revs in Neutral (with clutch pedal released) helps the syncho cones in their plight to smooth the changes.

Going up I never skip cogs so no need.

The best use of it is when changing from foward to reverse and vice-versa. Pick up the clutch in Neutral and get rid of those crunching and grinding noises. Some cars now a synchromesh reverse so that means it's not required.

AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION is the answer. By far and away the best way to drive.
 

Massive

Torque Master
Points
72
From
Weir
Car
Clio 172 Cup
i keep my accelerator flat to the floor, then get a nice jump forward when i put it into next gear, dont really doulbe clutch though
 

turbonutter69

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652
From
Alone in the dark.
Car
Insignia SRI.
I've settled right down on doing this cause of me new driveshafts.(trying not to snap another lol) I still do it in some cases. But very rarely now unless i'm havin a play with someone in another car lol.....
 

obi_waynne

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Deal, Kent UK
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A3 1.4 TFSI 150 COD
On a spirited drive I do this on the downchange. It's just not worth doing on the up though. It sounds great. I think that Bullit has a scene where you hear a double clutch change and it sounds awesome.
 

HDi fun

TC ModFather
Points
637
From
Buckinghamshire UK
Car
Passat 2.0 TDi
Massive: "i keep my accelerator flat to the floor, then get a nice jump forward when i put it into next gear, dont really doulbe clutch though"

Sounds like you need a faster car
 

obi_waynne

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Chris Green

Torque Junkie
Points
67
From
West London
Car
SEAT Leon 2.0l TDi
I can't help feeling that there'd be a world of difference between practising your double-declutching in a non-synchro box compared to a modern synchro job. In the synchro version, the synchros would hide the fact that you weren't doing it right, whereas a non-synchro box would leave you under no misapprehension whatsoever!

I might be old, but I'm not that old. It was an uncle who learned to drive in WWII on army trucks that told me about it.
 

HDi fun

TC ModFather
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637
From
Buckinghamshire UK
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Passat 2.0 TDi
That's fair. It was essential with old crash boxes (ie. no synchromesh at all) Otherwise you'd never get the gear you wanted at all. It's still a useful technique though and can lighten the load and wear on the syncho cones that otherwise have to correct the gears meshing speeds without assistance.

Heel and toe is the same tehnique but with the brakes being applied by the right toe whilst the heel of the right foot applies pressure to the accelerator pedal in order to increase engine speed during the process.

Modern brakes are effective enough that you really can leave it very late to brake and get your changing done first.

Or, brake first to achieve your desired speed and then swap gears to match your new speed.

Anticipation is really the key, how fast or moreso, how SLOWly do you really need to be going for a particular situation?

Why brake from 80 to 20mph when you could carry on quite happily at 45?
 

obi_waynne

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NB: Heel and toe can be done without a double clutch. They are not the same thing ;)

You can blip the throttle in with the clutch down.

Heel and toe allows you to match braking with a throttle blip to get the right gear in a more fluid manner.
 

herb

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Points
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From
west midlands
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Seat Leon Cupra
can i just ask why is double clutching needed ??? my old man used to have to do it on the old fire trucks in the air force but why does the modern day car need this ???
 

turbonutter69

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Alone in the dark.
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Insignia SRI.
can i just ask why is double clutching needed ??? my old man used to have to do it on the old fire trucks in the air force but why does the modern day car need this ???
A modern car does not require you to use this technique but quite alot of drivers do. Mainly motorcylcists as it makes for a smooth change going down the box. I use it purely for the engine noise on upchanges but use it for downchanges for smoothness...
 

herb

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west midlands
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Seat Leon Cupra
A modern car does not require you to use this technique but quite alot of drivers do. Mainly motorcylcists as it makes for a smooth change going down the box. I use it purely for the engine noise on upchanges but use it for downchanges for smoothness...
so its the same as down changing gear while braking in a car
keeping the foot slightly on the accelerator for smoothness i saw jason plato do it on 5th gear but not heel and toe but with the broad part of the foot
 

prevtec

Pro Tuner
Points
0
From
ireland
Car
prelude 2.2vtec jap
do you know when you have the clutch in and the revs up ( ready to spin wheels)
and when you let go the clutch pedal, that bite when it hits

8 minutes of that bite and your clutch is worn out
somrthing to think about for those who abuse the clutch

now thats a normal clutch, racing clutches are different


new topic
who knows how to drive without wrecking the clutch??
and i mean get a long long time out of 1
this has to do with normal driving, from hill starts to gear changes up and down, reversing. even driving the ring out of the car shouldnt destroy the clutch if you know how

there is a knack to it
 

HDi fun

TC ModFather
Points
637
From
Buckinghamshire UK
Car
Passat 2.0 TDi
NB: Heel and toe can be done without a double clutch. They are not the same thing ;)

You can blip the throttle in with the clutch down.

Heel and toe allows you to match braking with a throttle blip to get the right gear in a more fluid manner.
There's no point whatsoever in 'blipping' the throttle with the clutch pedal down as you're not speeding up the main shaft of the gearbox. So the synchromesh cones still have to do all the work. All you'll achieve is a slower gearchange and, maybe add 5 yards to the life expectancy of the clutch plate linings.
 

prevtec

Pro Tuner
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From
ireland
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prelude 2.2vtec jap
true for ya hdi
why dont people just drive normal???

the only time i double clutch or actually dont care about a clutch is when i have to perform a emergancy stop

shift down the gears to 2nd and pump the clutch in and out couple of times
although if i had abs, i would just jam on
 

HDi fun

TC ModFather
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From
Buckinghamshire UK
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Passat 2.0 TDi
I try to avoid emergency braking. As we all try to do so. I've not owned a car without ABS since 1997. It's strange that you have to unlearn pedal pressure restraint and replace it with brutally standing on the thing.

ABS or not , don't muck around with downchanges in that situation. Just control the braking as best you can - clutch pedal down same time as brake pedal.

With ABS and EBD and ESP and all the other stuff, just stand on the brake pedal and let the car sort out the rest. Trust me, it works. Far better than anyone imagines it could.
 

prevtec

Pro Tuner
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From
ireland
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prelude 2.2vtec jap
your right about that 1 with the abs
but its just a reaction i have with no abs,swerving out of the way and braking with no abs isnt an option, so i try and stop the car as fast as i can

ive had to do it a few times, and find what i say works for me
and the end of the day mate,all that new saftey equippment dosent matter if you can drive properley, it helps yes, but its you in control and your actions at the end of the day, is what counts
 

Chris Green

Torque Junkie
Points
67
From
West London
Car
SEAT Leon 2.0l TDi
new topic
who knows how to drive without wrecking the clutch??
and i mean get a long long time out of 1
this has to do with normal driving, from hill starts to gear changes up and down, reversing. even driving the ring out of the car shouldnt destroy the clutch if you know how there is a knack to it
I've now owned 11 cars since 1971, and only once had to have work done to a clutch - even then it was the thrust bearing I'd worn out, not the plates. I do a lot of town driving, with a lot of gear changes, but I take a pragmatic view when in a jam not to blast away from every green light in sight. Of course every change takes its toll on the thrust bearing, but not every change needs to burn the clutch.

I'd hazard a guess that my up-changes aren't the culprit when it comes to plate wear, since I only really slip it in first gear. If there's really is a knack to it, it's making sure that engine revs and gearbox speed are the same as the clutch re-engages (hence this thread about double-declutching). If I'm honest, I'm not so good at down-changes, but then I don't practice anything fancy apart from easing the revs up, as I let the clutch up.

Clutch life will also be affected by how long you spend in high gears - if you spend your life on a motorway in lighter traffic, the clutch is likely to last for, well, donkey's years. My Golf Gti's clutch was still working fine when I sold it with 120K on the clock, and that's even with 75% of its miles being done in traffic.

Mind you, I just traded in a C4 diesel 2.0 with 6 gears - this was just starting to show signs of slipping in top if you floored the pedal at around its maximum torque speed. So I guess that's another factor - how much power are you trying to stuff through it even when it's fully engaged?
 
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Chris Green

Torque Junkie
Points
67
From
West London
Car
SEAT Leon 2.0l TDi
I try to avoid emergency braking. As we all try to do so. I've not owned a car without ABS since 1997. It's strange that you have to unlearn pedal pressure restraint and replace it with brutally standing on the thing.

ABS or not , don't muck around with downchanges in that situation. Just control the braking as best you can - clutch pedal down same time as brake pedal.

With ABS and EBD and ESP and all the other stuff, just stand on the brake pedal and let the car sort out the rest. Trust me, it works. Far better than anyone imagines it could.
Got me thinking. I honestly can't remember the last time I had to do a 'full blown' emergency stop. Just as well the cars of today do bristle with ABS, ESP, EBD etc, cos by the time I have to do one, I'll have forgotten how to spell 'cadence' let alone do it! Our holiday hire car in Sicily, a brand new Lancia Ypsilon (what an odd looking motor) seemed to be very keen to cut the ABS in though on what I wouldn't have thought to be particularly slippery surfaces - of course, it could have been a fault!
 

prevtec

Pro Tuner
Points
0
From
ireland
Car
prelude 2.2vtec jap
I've now owned 11 cars since 1971, and only once had to have work done to a clutch - even then it was the thrust bearing I'd worn out, not the plates. I do a lot of town driving, with a lot of gear changes, but I take a pragmatic view when in a jam not to blast away from every green light in sight. Of course every change takes its toll on the thrust bearing, but not every change needs to burn the clutch.

I'd hazard a guess that my up-changes aren't the culprit when it comes to plate wear, since I only really slip it in first gear. If there's really is a knack to it, it's making sure that engine revs and gearbox speed are the same as the clutch re-engages (hence this thread about double-declutching). If I'm honest, I'm not so good at down-changes, but then I don't practice anything fancy apart from easing the revs up, as I let the clutch up.

Clutch life will also be affected by how long you spend in high gears - if you spend your life on a motorway in lighter traffic, the clutch is likely to last for, well, donkey's years. My Golf Gti's clutch was still working fine when I sold it with 120K on the clock, and that's even with 75% of its miles being done in traffic.

Mind you, I just traded in a C4 diesel 2.0 with 6 gears - this was just starting to show signs of slipping in top if you floored the pedal at around its maximum torque speed. So I guess that's another factor - how much power are you trying to stuff through it even when it's fully engaged?
thats what i mean

fast gear changes are good aswell, because the revs dont have time to drop so much, and when you release the clutch pedal, it dont have a lot of revs to make up
 

prevtec

Pro Tuner
Points
0
From
ireland
Car
prelude 2.2vtec jap
ive had my car now for 18 months but have put 80,000 km on it
and always hard driving
and my clutch dosent have the slightest sign of wear

does anyone know if theres a racing type clutch in the prelude
or am i driving the car properley???

i never have a smell of burned clutch, regardless how i drive
 

Prince

Torque King
Points
242
From
Northampton, England
Car
BMW E36 318is Coupe
I'm the same, I work my car hard when I'm given the opportunity. I think the last time I did an emergency stop was on my test!

How about double clutching with a quick shift? Is it worth it?
 

thexav

Pro Tuner
Staff member
Points
387
Car
2002 Clio 172
I suppose it would be smoother when you have mastered it and thats got to be a good thing.
 

RapidWagon

Tuner
Points
67
Car
Impreza Wagon Turbo
Hmm, can't think of a single valid reason for doing this on a public road in a modern car. Only ever used double clutching in circumstances the Constabluary would not approve of.

Heel and toe, I do confess to having used on the road... emergency stops; well I do enough miles that I get to 'practice' more than I would like in the car and on the bike.
 

TCJBOLDIE

Torque King
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667
From
Brisbane
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JB Starion
At my age DDC has become a lifetime habit as I learned to drive in cars back then had no syncro on 1st gear and it comes naturally on the road or track.
Can't see any benefit in DDC on the upchange.
IMHO it is unfortunate all the modern electronic gizmos are dumbing down driver skill levels and the great majority of drivers ?? motorists seem to regard operating a motor vehicle as something that needs no further training after they get their license.
FWIW threshold braking will stop a car in a shorter distance than ABS.
 
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obi_waynne

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With over 3 million page views this must be one of the most read posts on here, so I'm just bumping it for our newer members to read.
 

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