Cosworth Turbo Engine Oil

old-git

old-git

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Hopefully I will be getting the oil for my engine soon and I am looking for the best one for my application:

Ford Cosworth 4 cylinder turbo with approx 520bhp. Will be used for drag and sprinting and some road use. No oil in engine since build.

Recommendations please.
 
I would think that it would be similar to the turbo rb26 engines ( gtr)

Generally the drag guys use either Fuchs Titan pro r or s (previously called silkolene ) or motul 300v

Both are available in different viscosities.

Might be worth asking opie oils ( oilman on this forum ) they will do a specific recommend for any spec engine and use
 
Thanks Sleeper, I will investigate those.

I am hoping Oilman will respond, hence why I posted my question here :-)!
 
CALLING MR OIL MAN! You are needed! lol

He has probably seen your post, but wondering weather to post or not depending on if your going to buy of him or not lol :P
 
bigbadjoe said:
CALLING MR OIL MAN! You are needed! lol

He has probably seen your post, but wondering weather to post or not depending on if your going to buy of him or not lol :P
Click to expand...

No, it was the weekend.

A 10w-50 is ideal for a 520bhp cossie.

http://www.opieoils.co.uk/c-659-10w-50.aspx

The Nanodrive CFS is, on paper, the best oil available, but the Pro S and CFS are both really good oils, so all are good choices for your car.

Cheers

Tim
 
Thanks for prompt reply Oilman.

If both are good oils why would anyone pay an extra £20 for the CFS? What advantages, even small ones, does it have over the Race Pro S?
 
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If there is a power gain I am also interested as I am due an oil change but.......

there is often a lot of difference between a press release and reality
 
Yes, there is, but it seems good, based on customer feedback. Most people don't test it properly, but generally they say that the car runs smoother and feels more responsive with Nanodrive. One customer found his hill climb car was going over the line at 100mph rather than 97 at his local course after going from CFS 10w-60 to CFS Nanodrive 10w-50 (the lower viscosity is likely to have helped with that as well).

There are also some independent tests run by car magazines like Fast Ford, so Millers results appear genuine.

Cheers

Tim
 
We sell Redline and it's very good stuff, just quite expensive and comes in small cans. Not really had much to do with the others, but Joe Gibbs seem to make some good oils too.

Cheers

Tim
 
Good point about detergents in the article.

Are there any in the Millers oil? If not, how often should it be changed?

Thanks

Steve
 
TCJBOLDIE said:
Thanks for your reply Tim. I have attached the Forced Performance test on a plain bearing turbo and IMHO it is an interesting read .
http://store.forcedperformance.net/...Performance Recommendations for Motor Oil.pdf
Click to expand...

Parts of that make sense, but then it's also completely flawed as well. Car was fine driving around normally on a 20w-50, then they change to a 10w-30 drive it normally for a couple of days, then thrash it on the dyno and the bearing fails. I'd have been surprised if it didn't fail. They weren't using the right oil in the first place (it's thicker than you want when cold and only a semi-synthetic to my knowledge) although the additives in it are aimed at performance use, then they changed it to a basic synthetic (from what I can see) designed for normal road use.

At the bottom of the article they start highlighting anything with a high ZDDP content and that is typical American when it comes to oil. I swear a lot of them would use sunflower oil if you could get a high enough ZDDP content in it. While ZDDP is good, it is not the be all and end all of oil.

Here is something from John Rowland of Fuchs about ZDDP. It came about after some forum questions, but point 5 is very relevant to this discussion.

1)#!#!#!#!#!#! It is true that reduced ZDDP (zinc di-alkyl di-thio phosphate) levels have been proposed to improve exhaust catalyst life, because the phosphorus compounds in burnt oil do tend to de-activate the active sites on the catalyst matrix.
2)#!#!#!#!#!#! Even in 1960 when the A-Series was 8 years old, good quality oil (API SB) would contain some ZDDP of a primitive sort, equivalent to 300-500 parts per million of zinc. Current API SG/SH/SJ oils contain much superior types of ZDDP (it’s all to do with the length and branching of the alkyl side chains) at levels equivalent to 1000-1200ppm zinc. The point is, even the reduced ZDDP oils will still contain 600-800ppm zinc, so they’ll be much better than any 60’s or even 70’s oil.
3)#!#!#!#!#!#! ZDDP is not the only anti-wear compound in modern oils. The sulphur in the calcium or magnesium sulphonate-based detergents (present at high levels in modern oils) also has some anti-wear effect, and some oils contain phosphorus-free anti-wear agents such as molybdenum dithio-carbamates. (Nothing to do with MoS2. Don’t even think about it.) Some expensive oils also contain load-carrying synthetic ester lubricants.
4)#!#!#!#!#!#! The type of polymer used to generate the ‘multigrade’ performance of an oil is also important. There are expensive ‘shear-stable’ types that resist thinning during use, and cheap ones that do not! The way to really reduce wear is to maintain ‘hydrodynamic’ or thick-film lubrication at the tappet/cam contact. This depends on viscosity and rubbing velocity, and is highly desirable from a wear point of view because there in no metal/metal contact. In ‘boundary’ or thin-film lubrication there is contact, and this is where the surface-active anti-wear compounds such as ZDDP and molyDTCs do their stuff. Obviously, a fairly high viscosity shear-stable multigrade is an advantage. There is a test called the ‘High Temperature High Shear Viscosity’ (HTHSV) which is run at 150C in a close-clearance taper bearing rig. It is perfectly possible for a shear-stable 15W/50 for example to be twice the viscosity of a run of the mill 15W/50 in high temperature and high velocity/close clearance situations. A good 20W/50 or 15W/50 will have a HTHSV of 4 to 6 Centi-Poise (cP or mPa.s) units; a poor one could be as low as 2.8. Incidentally, even expensive ‘wide-range’ multigrades such as 0W/40 and 10W/60 tend to have average HTHSVs because they contain a lot of polymer, and more polymer means more sensitivity to shear effects.
5)#!#!#!#!#!#! It is all very well for me to say ‘buy a shear-stable oil’ but in some parts of the world, the USA in particular, this is not easy. Standard fill for American cars is 10W/30 or 5W/30 fuel-economy grade which is about as shear stable as Swarfega. This is fine for engines that spend 99% of their life at 5 to 15% of their rated output. An average car only uses about 20 to 25 BHP to move at 55MPH on a level road; maybe 30 to 40BHP if it has idle 4-wheel drive and the aerodynamics of an outside toilet. (Facts which are not popular with macho posers!). For the hard-working small classic engine which needs a UK-type better quality oil, a good choice is a motorcycle grade. Motorcycle engines are small, powerful, high-revving, and have a small oil capacity. Also, most of them have combined engine/gear lubrication, and there’s nothing worse than gear teeth for shearing down a poor quality multigrade. Look for 20W/50, 15W/50 or 10W/50 grades which pass the Japanese ‘JASO MA’ specification. This includes a shear stability test. JASO MA was brought in by the four main Japanese bike makers as a response to problems with low-viscosity ‘fuel economy’ oils, mainly in the USA.
6)#!#!#!#!#!#! Our top man in the USA tells me that there is the ‘oil shop ritual’ in the USA, were well-meaning owners take their cars for an oil change about every 3000 miles. The oil used in these places is usually poor quality, reflected in a price of around $8 pre US gallon. I think the justification is that cheap oil every 3000 miles is better than oil costing 4 times as much every 9,000 miles. It isn’t.
7)#!#!#!#!#!#! When 2 dissimilar metals (even if they’re only slightly dissimilar) are in contact, and some moisture is present, an electrical cell is created. So, given time, a cam in contact with a tappet will, if there is some moisture in the oil film, initiate a region of corrosion. The lessons are obvious: Always run the engine hard enough and long enough to get the oil hot. This drives off water and traces of fuel. Use your car regularly to circulate the oil and renew lubricant films. 3000 miles per year is far less damaging than 300 miles per year. Never start the engine, run it for a couple of minutes, then switch off and leave the poor thing to stand idle for weeks!
8)#!#!#!#!#!#! And finally….do not, EVER, ever even think about using snake oil, magic additives, bolt-on charms or whatever that claim to rebuild the engine from the inside, reduce friction to less than zero, and so forth. Over the past 30 years I’ve analysed on average two a year of these useless gadgets and concoctions, and without exception they do nothing….. if you’re lucky, and if you’re not they damage your engine. If they demonstrate anything at all, it is the ignorance of their purveyors and the gullibility of their purchasers. Needless to say, the Internet is awash with them.

Cheers

Tim
 
old-git said:
Good point about detergents in the article.

Are there any in the Millers oil? If not, how often should it be changed?

Thanks

Steve
Click to expand...

Hi Steve

Yes, Millers oils contain detergents, as do pretty much all oils in Europe. The longevity of an oil depends on its use. A top end oil is good for 10k on the road or 10 solid hours of track/race use.

Cheers

Tim
 
Thanks Tim

OK, 30 1/4 miles, 12 sprints (runs not meets) and 500 miles road use a year, then a lot of standing around in the garage during the winter.

Change it annually?

Steve
 
Hi Tim I am not an oil expert but am keen seeker of knowledge and it appears that there are a few points in your response to the FP test results that you may want/need to clarify.PLEASE understand I am NOT trying to start a war just trying to understand the thinking behind your response.
1 my understanding is that they state that they have had zero bearing problems in their 600hp car with Brad Penn in the sump.
2 They flushed out the BP then drove it including 2 oil changes to remove all traces of the BP additive package prior to filling up with MOBIL1 .
3 They"thrashed it on the dyno and the bearing fails" My understanding is that they needed to demonstrate bearing failure within a short time frame to get the information out there ASAP and not wait say 10-15000 kilometers or so to get the same end result.
4 You seem to have overlooked their claim that they have carried out multiple dyno tests over 2 years with ZERO bearing failures with Brad Penn 20-50 in the sump.
5 FP claim that oil/water? temps and Pressures were similar.
6 I think FP were also trying to point out that Mobil1 is not the same as it was when first marketed as the ZDDP has been reduced to comply with emissions and also to ensure the catalytic converters last
 
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And I only asked what oil I should use :-)

My engine guru is happy with the Miller suggestion. However, he uses Castrol RS 10W50 in all of his high performane engines (Pikes Peak RS200 for example).

What are your thoughts on this oil?
 
TCJBOLDIE said:
Hi Tim I am not an oil expert but am keen seeker of knowledge and it appears that there are a few points in your response to the FP test results that you may want/need to clarify.PLEASE understand I am NOT trying to start a war just trying to understand the thinking behind your response.
1 my understanding is that they state that they have had zero bearing problems in their 600hp car with Brad Penn in the sump.
2 They flushed out the BP then drove it including 2 oil changes to remove all traces of the BP additive package prior to filling up with MOBIL1 .
3 They"thrashed it on the dyno and the bearing fails" My understanding is that they needed to demonstrate bearing failure within a short time frame to get the information out there ASAP and not wait say 10-15000 kilometers or so to get the same end result.
4 You seem to have overlooked their claim that they have carried out multiple dyno tests over 2 years with ZERO bearing failures with Brad Penn 20-50 in the sump.
5 FP claim that oil/water? temps and Pressures were similar.
6 I think FP were also trying to point out that Mobil1 is not the same as it was when first marketed as the ZDDP has been reduced to comply with emissions and also to ensure the catalytic converters last
Click to expand...

1. Yes, sounds that way to me, but I bet they change the oil on a very regular basis, being a tuner and American. I'd rather go for the synthetic oil that doesn't need changing anywhere near as often.
2. I was stupidly busy yesterday and read through the article a bit quickly. No matter what 10w-30 they used, it isn't the right grade for a modified Evo. See point 5 in the info I posted above from John Rowland
3. I realise why they did it, but if they were driving it sensibly on the road, there might have been no issue at all.
4. I did miss that, again, read it too quickly.
5. Temps don't surprise me much, a thinner oil will flow faster and transfer more heat away. They say the pressure was similar, but give no data for that, even though they seem to have data for everything else, then again, being revved hard on the dyno will help keep the pressure up anyway.
6. ZDDP is not the be all and end all with oils. Yes, some oils have changed due to emissions laws, but there are plenty of things that still protect the engine. They compared a thick oil, designed for performance use against a thin oil aimed at emissions and economy. Kind of like doing a drag race with an Evo and a Colt diesel, and point out the failings of the Colt for losing. Like a diesel Colt in a drag race, Mobil 10w-30 in a modified Evo is just the wrong thing for the job. Okay, they might be trying to show how some oils aren't suitable for performance use, but that is often highlighted on the can where it says things like 'Economy'.

Cheers

Tim
 
Appreciate your reply Tim.
I am led to believe that they had warranty claims for worn/damaged bearings relatively low mileage turbos and that led to them posting their recommendations.
 
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There is often the problem that oils that are advertised the most are seen as the best, but really the ones that are advertised the most are aimed at the masses (standard road cars, with owners that want the best fuel economy and lowest road tax). If you put the Brad Penn 20w-50 and Mobil 10w-30 in something like a Ford Focus 1.6, you'd find it would run better on the Mobil.

I always work in celcius and didn't convert their 200F temp to just a minute ago. Their claim of needing a 20w-50 if the oil is getting over 200F is wrong. If they used a good synthetic, it's fine at 130C, so the engine will develop a little more power and run more efficiently.

Cheers

Tim
 
very interesting, surprised there's no mention of Redline oil a quality ester base oil thats costly but not hard to get in USA, they have a variety of street and race oils. without the cleaning agents in oil as race spec one would think an engine would sludge up, what is considered more frequent changes compared to the standard 5 to 10 thousand miles now used in new vehicles in USA? is group III dino oils leqally sold as synthetic as in the USA over in european and other countries
 
Redline is a very good oil, but doesn't come in a 10w-50 (over here anyway).

Yes, hydrocracked oils are sold as synthetics over here, but most companies are putting things on the can so they stand out as mineral based.

Cheers

Tim
 
With regard to Redline, Elite have suggested their shockproof lightweight oil for my sequential box as an alternative to the Millers CRX NT which is causing pitting to gears and bearings. Fortunately I haven't run the box yet!
 
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