Can you run a car on water?

obi_waynne

obi_waynne

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One for our resident chemists to theorise over.

Theory
Electrolysis used to split water into HHO gas which is highly flammible. Burn this gas along with regular fuel and get much better MPG. (The mixture with regular fuel negates the need for expensive engine conversion.) So with a litre of water you can get 1000's miles worth of energy by splitting it.

Reality:
Surely the amount of electricity used to "split the water" into this magic gas will be greater than the energy released when this gas is burned? The by product of burning HHO is water - very enviro fiendly.

If it really is this easy/safe/simple why don't car makers do this already? (Is there an oil company conspiracy? :shock:)

Why?:
I saw a "spend $50-$100 on a book site" with instructions on how to make this work. I am a little sceptical thinking about the laws of conservation of energy.
 
the reason i thought this wasnt already happening was due to the amount of energy required to split the water.

if it could be done then energy companies would be making a fortune ( more than they already are ) as they wouldnt need to by in gas / oil
 
That's kind of where I was going. You'd need to chuck in more energy than would be released at the end.

I'm still working on my potato peeling fuelled car. Seem to be having a problem getting the things down the filler neck at the moment.
 
Try potatoe ice cream (Spud you lick have loads:lol:)

Does anyone know the energy requirements? There are videos around of cars running on water,

The gas is called oxyhydrogen, a bit more info that adds to the case that this might be possible. I'd really like some of our resident chemists to settle this either way. I can't really go on a gut feeling.

The output is pretty huge according to NASA Glenn Research Center Glenn Safety Manual which states "The quantity of heat evolved, according to Julius Thomsen, is 34,116 calories for each gram of hydrogen burned. This heat-disturbance is quite independent of the mode in which the process is conducted; but the temperature of the flame is dependent on the circumstances under which the process takes place. It obviously attains its maximum in the case of the firing of pure "oxyhydrogen" gas (a mixture of hydrogen with exactly half its volume of oxygen, the quantity it combines with in becoming water, German Knall-gas). It becomes less when the "oxyhydrogen" is mixed with excess of one or the other of the two reacting gases, or an inert gas such as nitrogen, because in any such case the same amount of heat spreads over a larger quantity of matter."

A Patent exists for use in diesel engines as a fuel additive http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?patentnumber=4573435
 
The other problem with oxyhydrogen is that it is EXTREMELY flammable. You're not even allowed to keep compressed oxygen cylinders in the same room as compressed hydorgen.

Carting the stuff around in a car is lethal. That's why the hydrogen fuel cells are getting a lot of attention.
 
HDi fun said:
The other problem with oxyhydrogen is that it is EXTREMELY flammable. You're not even allowed to keep compressed oxygen cylinders in the same room as compressed hydorgen.

Carting the stuff around in a car is lethal. That's why the hydrogen fuel cells are getting a lot of attention.
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At least when they crash at 80mph, you wouldnt have to brake following them. They'd explode with such a velocity there'd be nothing left to hit, just a black mark on the ground.

:lol:
 
:lol: The practical thinker, as ever IZO!

The in car kits seem to produce small amounts of the gas on demand so there is a minimal explosion risk - more of a big splash.
 
Is this not a similar approach to supplementing or replacing petrol with LPG?

Can you run compression ingition engines on LPG or CNG?

I like the thought process, Izo - it presumably would also reduce NHS costs. Just imagine what replacing drivers steering wheel airbags with spikes would do? Let the passengers have the normal ones, but fill 'em with pure oxygen to enhance the hydrogen combustion.

Sorry, I'm being silly now.
 
HDi fun said:
Is this not a similar approach to supplementing or replacing petrol with LPG?

Can you run compression ingition engines on LPG or CNG?

I like the thought process, Izo - it presumably would also reduce NHS costs. Just imagine what replacing drivers steering wheel airbags with spikes would do? Let the passengers have the normal ones, but fill 'em with pure oxygen to enhance the hydrogen combustion.

Sorry, I'm being silly now.
Click to expand...


I call that sense. People would learn to drive more. Or, there'd be less on the roads. Either way thats a good thing. Haha.
 
What about the Large Hadron Collider in Geneva that gets fired up this year! Basically a giant underground Particle Accelerator - could that technology be miniaturised to fit under the bonnet and power cars with atomic energy?
 
What has an LHC got to do with atomic power?

I thoguht they used computer controlled magnets to push particles round in oppsite directions at insane speeds eventually smashing them together just to see what happens.

Like when cavemen banged two pieces of flint together and created fire. Scientifically are we going backwards or forwards do you think :lol:
 
The Particle Accelerators aren't particularly efficient to put it mildy. Their purpose is that of research in sub atomic and even sub particle physics. Hopefully one day someone will come up with a means to carry out Nuclear Fusion at sane temperatures and pressures.

Then atomic power for the road would be a reality.

Until then, I'm plodding on with my Kitchen Devils peeler!!
 
HDi fun said:
Is this not a similar approach to supplementing or replacing petrol with LPG?

Can you run compression ingition engines on LPG or CNG?

I like the thought process, Izo - it presumably would also reduce NHS costs. Just imagine what replacing drivers steering wheel airbags with spikes would do? Let the passengers have the normal ones, but fill 'em with pure oxygen to enhance the hydrogen combustion.

Sorry, I'm being silly now.
Click to expand...


I read an article in Autospeed ( Aussie online mag) on using LPG with Diesel:

http://autospeed.com/cms/A_110053/article.html

One problem: European law states that you cannot run more than one fuel at a time on the highway. You can switch from one to the other (as in my LPG/Petrol Range Rover), but not together.

One anomaly/error in the legislation is that it classes Nitrous as a fuel!!!!
 
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I have to say I wasn't aware of legislation against mixed mode fuelling. Somewhere I thought I read that the local council here (Aylesbury Vale) runs refuse vehicles on a mixture of bio and mineral diesel (mixed in same tank) supplemented by compressed natural gas. Someone at county hall is obviously tellng porkies.

Doesn't mixing bio and mineral count as mixed fuels?

What's the RR like on LPG? I drove one of the V8 Jaguars on LPG. This was a shoddy aftermarket effort and it really didn't do the car any favours.
 
nitrous as another fuel ? i thought it would have been classed as an addictive
i see some insurance companies are starting to allow it for road use ( at a huge cost of course )

i thought mixing 2 fuels together, petrol and nitrous, diesel and biodiesiel would have classed as 1 fuel as they are coming from the 1 tank
 
HDi fun said:
I have to say I wasn't aware of legislation against mixed mode fuelling. Somewhere I thought I read that the local council here (Aylesbury Vale) runs refuse vehicles on a mixture of bio and mineral diesel (mixed in same tank) supplemented by compressed natural gas. Someone at county hall is obviously tellng porkies.

Doesn't mixing bio and mineral count as mixed fuels?

What's the RR like on LPG? I drove one of the V8 Jaguars on LPG. This was a shoddy aftermarket effort and it really didn't do the car any favours.
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Bio and mineral diesel are both diesels, so my guess is that they would be treated as the same fuel type.

I have a useful contact in the police who answers questions on highway law. If anyone is interested I will post his contact details. He is very helpful.

Aylesbury could well be doing as you say and not be aware of the European law :)

Although it is a basic system (simply pumped in just before the plenum chamber, there is no difference in performance. With it costing around 53p/litre it makes the V8 just about affordable :)
 
pgarner said:
nitrous as another fuel ? i thought it would have been classed as an addictive
i see some insurance companies are starting to allow it for road use ( at a huge cost of course )

i thought mixing 2 fuels together, petrol and nitrous, diesel and biodiesiel would have classed as 1 fuel as they are coming from the 1 tank
Click to expand...

Yes, that was my argument, that nitrous is just air on steroids, but that is what is written in the legislation. Shows you how much the law makers know about the stuff :)

Diesel and biodiesel are both diesel so are probably classed as a single fuel.

Petrol and nitrous are kept in separate tanks, as you no doubt know :)

It has never been illegal to use nitrous on the highway, it was just difficult to get insurance to cover it!
 
I did look at a gas conversion for my Nissan but the cost was horrific even for a 4 cylinder car. They proposed to fit a whole new additional injection system so that it mirrored the cylinder by cylinder way that the petrol system operates in that car.

So I left it.
 
It was certainly big money, something of that order. I'm interested in the idea of converting a turbocharged car (such as yours). How does that work?

Presumably the gas goes in on the high pressure side.
 
I have no idea :lol:

It was The Greenfuel Company who quoted me said if i was happy with the price to give them a call and theyed book the car into the garage closest to me
 
Some, yes, although you really should do the de-esterification bit with sodium hydroxide etc. Which makes it an intensive and more costly porcess.

I'm not allowed to so so with the 16 valve HDi engine due to the stupidly high injection pressure (about 1300 bar) and that menace of a bloody particle filter (money filter) whose chemical behaviour is incompatible with such fuels.

We have tried the old 1996 Seat D on neat vegetable oil mixed 75:25 with pump diesel (ie. 75% raw cooking oil from Asda) and it works well.

If you're going to do this then you MUST register with HMR&C and pay duty on the fuel you use. It's illegal to do it otherwise.

But I'm working on my potato peeling powered engine. Any volunteers for beta testing?
 
after studying chemistry for three years now my input would be the same as everyone else here. yes a mixuture of oxygen and hydrogen (HHO gas) would give out a good amount of energy on combustion but as many of you have stated the problem lies with the energy required to electrolyse the water itself into hydrogen ions and hydroxy ions. Although there is something that i dont quite understand- electrolysis of water, as i have stated, gives H+ ions and OH- ions, not hydrogen and not oxygen. im not too sure but my best prediction is that you would need a HUGE amount of energy after the initial electrolysis to remove the hydrogen from the hydroxy ion, though this may be possible if the energy gain of forming H2 and O2 offsets the intial energy required, hmmm, would have to sit down with a pen a piece of paper and a custard cream to work it out. I actually down a bit of work on fuel cells about a year ago. I wish i could find my experimental results and post them up so you could see all the parameters that influence the energy output. however what i can report is that we were working on a relatively large fuel cell that delivered not much power, no where near enough for a car! If Honda spent millions (maybe billions???) developing the FCX then you can be sure that spending £100 quid on a home made system is a con.
 
what about solar powered cars? Only problem then would be sitting on the bonnet trying to look cool would scald your bum...
 
If vegetable derived fuels are to be considered, perhaps we can relax a bit with regard to genetically modified strains if crops are grown purely for use as road fuel. I do not want to be eating, or feeding my kids, anything that's been f...ed about with.

But, I have no problem with running road vehicles on fuel derived from crops that are specifically engineered to increase the ethanol or RME yield.

I suppose the problem is ensuring that such crops never come into contact with food crops or those crops which are grown to feed livestock reared for consumption as food.

Perhaps grow fuel crops in massive poly-tunnels thus removing most risk of contamination with food crops. (There's always a slight chance).
 
Its cross pollination that worries me with GM crops, even with POLY tunnels. We might get wierd strains of other plants that consume human flesh and start taking over the country. GM is bad!
 
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