Cadence v ABS

old-git

old-git

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I discovered today that cadence braking isn't a good thing to do in a car fitted with ABS. Didn't crash but the two don't mix very well :)

The problem is that, having cadenced braked for over 40 years, instinct takes over in an emergency.

Have any other drivers of a 'certain age' experienced this?
 
a certain age?:amazed:

forget ABS, cadence braking wins! its more effective and less prone to failure as it did on a wet road on my last 2 cars. i dont know how good or bad it is on the VR4 as the brakes were never good enough to lock up on any surface before i got the brembos:lol:

i think the answers to this thread will be few and far between. i only got trained on cadence training as part of my skid pan training so most people dont know what it is and rely on technology to replace driving skills:blink:
 
I think in snow and ice Cadence has it's merits but I know what you mean about old habits dying hard!

I still say MUSH MUSH and whip the bonnet as we pull off our drive! ;) (I'm sure OG will get that reference!)
 
If I brake hard for some reason, I automatically put my left arm across to protect the passenger (even if there's on one else in the car) what the hell is that all about....lol
 
claymore said:
If I brake hard for some reason, I automatically put my left arm across to protect the passenger (even if there's on one else in the car) what the hell is that all about....lol
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I think you get 10/10 for protective instincts clay :)
 
I pass my test (notice I don't say learned to drive) before ABS was more than an option on high end models so cadence was the order of the day then.

Since 1998 I've had ABS cars continuously but I still don't dig into it very often at all. Threshold braking is effective.

Do consider this though - ABS can cadence brake each wheel independently so it's possibly going to have an advantage over a driver operating all four wheel brakes with one pedal.
 
I too have had cars with ABS for many years but it was only earlier on this year for the first time that I actually activated it because of a muppet pulling out in front of the beast, it was just the weirdest sensation and took me by surprise a little.
Not sure what to expect when I stamped on the brakes to be honest, so worried was I with what happened and how it happened that I went straight to the garage to have them check over the brakes for me to put my mind at ease that everything was OK; thankfully it was.
 
Yeah on loose gravel and loose snow it can really get in the way. Generally though it's beneficial for the most part. It does allow some retention of directional control in the event of full force braking. And in the event of a panic stop it overcomes the problems with the almost instinctive desire to apply full pedal force.

Best solution is to drive with observation on ten tenths and reduce the need to brake too hard too frequently.
 
i didnt have any choice last night around newcastle with the artic. driving on ice frozen to the road surface on a downhill slope. even with ABS on all 4 axles i had to come off the brakes to pull the rig straight. slowing, trailer can slide out, going faster, the trailer will be pulled straight so i had to cadence brake to keep control. ABS could have caused a jack-knife in those conditions which is possibly why so many jack-knifes happen in winter. i wasnt trained to cadence brake during car or truck licences and it was only due to the army including skid pan that i learned it and i have used it ever since regardless of ABS. technology is never a substitute for driving skills for the simple reason that technology is not able to observe or forward plan
 
In a word yes

ABS is a neccessary "evil" on most cars but it isnt desiigned for todays cars IMHO it is designed for todays drivers

The average 4 x 4/people carrier driver doesnt understand what a skid is let alone what to do if it happens . Without abs there would be far more accidents because today virtually eveyone drives so the average skill level is much lower that it used to be
 
Drivers are no better or worse than they've ever been. There's just more of em. :)

I'd still not delete ABS anymore than I'd delete any other technological advance
 
sorry but you are wrong there about the drivers abilities being the same.

yes numbers have increased but thats because most families have 2 or 3 car cars

In the seventies you didnt get women taking kids to school in large vans with seats and air con. (4x4) a lot of which have no idea about how to drive and think that abs is a six pack.
 
I take it most of you know the facts:
- The friction between to objects is higher when they are not sliding across each other.
- ABS prevents the wheels from locking and skidding, therefor maintaning better traction and stopping a car faster compared to a skidding vehicle. (on solid surfaces like asphalt)
- A rolling wheel has better traction than a sliding/skidding wheel. (First point)
- People learned cadence- and threshold-braking before cars had ABS-systems because of the above point.
- Newer versions of ABS can manage the breaking power seperatly for each of the 4 wheels, which is impossible for a human driver (unless they add 4 breakes controlled by each toe, haha).

And something not everyone has read/heard of?..
According to a test done by RACV in 2004, ABS actually increces the stopping distance on loose materials such as snow or gravel! Non-ABS-fittet vehicles did however loose control when skidding on snow/gravel, while ABS-fitted vehicles maintained control, but stopping distance is better without ABS on snow/gravel.
On all other surfaces ABS is better than non-ABS braking.
SOURCE

I'd stick to ABS-fitted vehicles. Usually we drive on asphalt and the few times you have to drive on snow/gravel the speedlimits are lower or just be smart about it and slow down anyway.

Anyway, with or without ABS, if you car won't turn or starts spinning due to slippery roads and you need to steer away from something, let go of the brakes and acceleration and only use the clutch which will focus 100% of the traction from the wheels on the ground.
 
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Possibly BUT the above only applies if the driver understands what he/she is doing and most dont.
And this is the real point. .
How often is the accident caused by the driver not having a clue how to drive in the conditions.

Far more cars crash in the snow because of skidding out of control than go into the back of the car in front cos they cant stop quickly enough in a straight line. The latter will also be a much less serious accidents all other things being equal
After all sliding across the road is far worse that hitting someone from behind .
 
Any type of braking system is only as good as the person behind it. In most cases most drivers don't even know what to do in a heavy situation and will panic, slam on the anchors and pray with no thought of how to steer around it. Only the wise will know what to do, us 'older' ones learnt cadence braking before ABS came into play and therefore had to learn how to brake hard and still maintain control and steer through a situation whilst still slowing down.

I still use cadence braking and never pause to think about it, it just happens. I would have to drive a non-ABS car to remember how it was, saying that I have not had the ABS kick in a great deal, perhaps I drive too slow, or just aware of my surroundings and drive accordingly?
 
I've been taught to correct skids. I don't know what cadence is though... But I think Sleeper is more or less right with his opinion. I don't even know what cadence braking is, and depend on ABS most of the time. BUT I do keep a good eye out for anything that may cause me to brake and am fully prepared before I have to stop in an emergency. I had a small boy run out in the middle of the road to pick up his ball, fortunetly I had enough time to slow right down and come to a full stop.
 
Stamford, disable the ABS. pull a fuse or disconnect something and the system will switch off to see how it feels. i had what turned out to be a broken wire on one of my sensors and i was told that the whole lot will be switched off if there is any fault. i didnt care because i suspected that a wire was the problem and the hub carriers were being swapped from my old car anyway to take the brembos.

having to think about how to react is the problem. most people will go with instinct which is usually hit the brakes and hope for the best which is often wrong. if you are skidding on any surface the last thing you do is slam the anchors on but that is human instinct. i want to stop so i brake! they arent trained on the required skills which over-ride those instincts and develop the correct ones so their reaction will generally be the wrong one. if i hadnt done skid pan training then i wouldnt know that i should floor the clutch rather than the brake and that is why i will not buy a car with an automatic gearbox. i have driven over a contaminated road on a few occasions and once i was going sideways at 40MPH heading for trouble in the shape of the M4 motorway underneath the barrier that i was sliding towards. i didnt brake and i got the car back into line albeit a slippery line until the contamination cleared from the tyres. training is the key to bringing the standards of driving up to an acceptable level and i really dont understand why skid pan and adverse weather conditions are not mandatory. that training would save MILLIONS with reduced accidents
 
ABS systems bring another benefit in the form of electronic brake force distribution which means the system pre-determines how much brake force to apportion to each brake before the pedal is even applied.
 
HDi fun said:
Don't cripple the ABS - you're likely to be voiding your insurance by driving the car with a modified braking system.
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i meant as a temporary solution to not having a non ABS car to feel the difference then undo what you did to disable it ie pull a fuse, drive round for a bit then put it back in when you are done experimenting
 
I grew up without ABS but I'd not want to see it removed from specifications for cars. Let's face it, my Dad gew up with drum brakes and crossply tyres. Where do we start and stop progress?
 
with all due respect, disc brakes are not a driver aid. they are mechanically better than drums regardless of driver skill. ABS is designed to prevent the brakes from locking up but driver training would deal with that anyway. my point is that it depends on the motivation behind the progress. is it mechanically better or is it an easier option than training people to drive? at the moment i have a 12 plate corsa on hire. automatic lights. the windscreen wipers have a mind of their own. i want intermittent, i dont get that until the car decides to sweep the windscreen. the indicators do not click into a different position when used so its easier to forget to cancel them when you are used to looking for the stalk being somewhere other than centre. i am the driver and i want to control the car. i dont want the car making my decisions or acting on my behalf. dont even get me started on pratnav. i will not use that!
 
I guess you don't need satnav in Scotland as there are only about 4 roads ;)

Although seriously old school, I think a modern ABS with independent braking of each wheel will do a better job than us using cadence on all four wheels at once.

I agree that driver training would reduce the need to rely on it in the first place, but that isn't going to happen.
 
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old-git said:
I guess you don't need satnav in Scotland as there are only about 4 roads ;)

Although seriously old school, I think a modern ABS with independent braking of each wheel will do a better job than us using cadence on all four wheels at once.

I agree that driver training would reduce the need to rely on it in the first place, but that isn't going to happen.
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My sentiments exactly.
 
old-git said:
Although seriously old school, I think a modern ABS with independent braking of each wheel will do a better job than us using cadence on all four wheels at once.
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that does depend on what you are driving on. normal roads on a sunny day, you may well be correct but when conditions or terrain offer less grip, ABS does seem to have issues.

as with any technology though, it cant see what is going on. a human can see and can adapt to the conditions
 
Agree with you as well but I spend most of my time driving on tarmac and with the anticipation you mention so I'll still keep it.

And as you so rightly say - machinery cannot anticipate - it can only react. But it does so incredibly quickly.

And as we all agree - it's down to the driver to engage brain in the first place.
 
RichiesTrucking said:
as with any technology though, it cant see what is going on. a human can see and can adapt to the conditions
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Ah, humans may well be see ahead, but the fact that they still get into trouble seems to me this isn't much help to them. This means that they then have to react and ABS will react much faster.
 
RichiesTrucking said:
that does depend on what you are driving on. normal roads on a sunny day, you may well be correct but when conditions or terrain offer less grip, ABS does seem to have issues.

as with any technology though, it cant see what is going on. a human can see and can adapt to the conditions
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but thats the problem too many drivers look but dont see let alone adapt ,

And an awful lot wouldnt recognise a problem until it is an accident

ABS may have issues on gravel but since the great majority of driving isnt on gravel it hardly matters

For people that dont understand cadence breaking ( the majority) abs is a godsend in almost all weather conditions. Not only for them but for the people the dont drive into.
 
From very high speeds its abs every time ive known 2 guys that thought they could beat the technology with there razor sharp brain & switched it off. One went through the tyre wall at the bottom of Brunters the other left a 84 metre skid mark (we measured it) & stopped 10 metres short of the barrier.
 
anticipation and reaction is down to training and skills development and most people are lacking in both. you cant develop skills that you are not taught in the first place and that comes down to a woefully inadequete driving instructor who teaches people to pass a test, not to drive.

under normal conditions i am happy for the ABS and braking technology (the VR4 has sensors and applies braking force to each wheel individually) to stop my car but when the ABS fails, as it has done on my 2 previous cars on a wet road with no faults showing, i will be relying on getting myself out of trouble rather than driving with a false sense of security which is encouraged with safety systems. they aid the driver, they do not replace the driver and when they screw up in a big way, no technology will save them in every situation as we all know. no matter how many safety systems you put in a car, driver error will still cause deaths on the road due to both the initial mistake and the incorrect corrective actions
 
stamford said:
The driving test should include some off road training to include skidpan lessons. If going to crash do it eloquently!
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There's snow and ice on all roads at least 1-2 months a year during the winter in southern Norway (almost 5-6 months further north) and landscape is very dynamic with a lot of steep hills where stopping is almost impossible if you don't know what to do. Because of this, everyone in Norway has to take a special course for snow and ice when getting their driving licence. Lots of skidding, accelerating and braking with and without antispin and/or ABS. And obviously there's a lot of experience to gain from driving each year.

There's also a mandatory course for driving on smaller country-side roads which are lethal in Norway. Especially during the winter.
 
unfortunately here in the uk they are more interested in making money in the name of road safety rather than actually improving the problem. this whole 'speed kills' brainwashing thing has worked on some people but those who can think for themselves know that its nonsense. actions cause accidents, not speed on its own! whether doing 30 MPH or 130 MPH, if you steer your car at a pedestrian you are going to kill them. the speed is largely irrelevant as its the fact you ran them over that caused their death
 
Unfortunately, speed is a big factor. Hit someone at 20 and they will probably survive as the human body is designed to survive this sort of impact. Hit them at 30 and they may survive, hit them at forty and they will probably die.
 
Whatever your driving level and however quick you see the problem you have accept that it takes a longer distance to react if you are going at 40mph than at 30 and the situation will also be easier to deal with if going slower.

Nobody is perfect but far more importantly you are not the only one on the road. You can be driving perfectly and someone just does something insane in front of you.

Your speed is then very relevant.
 
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