Are diesels losing their old boy image

[obi_waynne]

Diesels were thought of as being old mens cars. Is this something that has changed? Did the change happen quickly or has it been a slow evolution?

 

[HDi fun]

Diesels were thought of as being old mens cars. Is this something that has changed? Did the change happen quickly or has it been a slow evolution?

They've lost that image without a doubt. What they've also lost are the traditional virtues of simplicity and economy.

 

[thexav]

The car makers don't seem to offer sporty Diesels much. I think they are worried that the petrol models would not sell against a similarly specced hot diesel!

 

[HDi fun]

The car makers don't seem to offer sporty Diesels much. I think they are worried that the petrol models would not sell against a similarly specced hot diesel!

That's part of the problem. litre for litre and £ for £ the diesels are outrunning the similar petrol models.

That's why many diesels are in low states of tune from the factory.

It's only recently that BMW has managed to pull off a 3.0 six that performs like its diesel couterparts and that's long before fuel economy is considered.

 

[obi_waynne]

Alpina recently did a diesel model but in the main I have to agree that the makers seem shy of putting diesel models up against their petrol sports models. An S3 with a tuned 2.5 Tdi would be a monster (if done right) - somehow I can't see it happening.

 

[turbonutter69]

I thought there was quite alot of sporty diesels popping up out of the factories. Vauxhall have done some sporty diesels, so have VW also. Ford and Audi also have some sporty diesels. Ok so there not top end manufacturers but they do produce sporty diesels.

 

[obi_waynne]

Quick diesels but not necessarily "sport models" in bright livery with all the bells and whistles of a hot hatch.

The diesels will still not get a VXR RS or ST badge though and I doubt they have recaros and other sports equipment.

That said I do think things are changing.

Lets put up a challenge then and see what's about, which sporty diesel models can you think of? I'll go with the Alpina D3 but it still looks a bit normal!

 

[turbonutter69]

I saw a new shape scirrocco yesterday and that was diesel but looked very sporty even the interior.

 

[HDi fun]

I think that the tide is turning in favour of diesel for performance because you can get 1500-4500rpm thrust of a large NATASP petrol engine without the punishing fuel usage. But let's not forget the TFSi motors from VAG, for example. 170bhp from a 1.4 litre petrol is sensational. OK, the torque is adrift of a diesel with similar BHP output but the TFSi can be revved sweetly to the 6500+rpm red line and deliver performance all the way through.

Therefore, the gears can be shorter, which will increase the torque at the road wheels.

You can no longer choose diesel for just for economy, neither can you choose petrol just for performance. Neither excels at either over it's similarly priced couterpart anymore.

The gap is closing fast. Perhaps it's time for a totally new engine technology? That MB diesotto principle is interesting.

As and when I can justify buying another car (business is so slow at the moment that we're managing with one car in the family) I will probably go for a pre 2002 large engined petrol car on account of road tax and the fact that no-one wants anything over 3 litres anymore. That opens up a whole range of BMWs; Jags and Mercs or which there are thousands available up and down the UK for bargain money.

£6000 budget buys a very tidy BMW 535i V8 with a full dealer history.





No motoring is cheap, the govt has seen to that across the board.

 

[ez64]

Shame Audi did not carry on with there V12 diesel's in the R8 and maybe bringing the V12 config back into the main market and not just rare or super cars.

 

[obi_waynne]

http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evocarreviews/201941/bmw_alpina_d3.html

New Alpina D3 In-line 4-cyl, 1995cc, turbodiesel
Max power: 197bhp @ 4000rpm
Max torque: 302lb ft @ 2000rpm
0 - 60mph: 7.4sec (claimed)
Top Speed: 145mph (claimed)
Price: £26,995

47MPG! This looks like a bargain against the 330 Petrol which it performs similar to!

 

[WLBjork]

We're getting closer with the sporty diesels though.

Skoda offered the Fabia vRS as a diesel-only model using the 1.9TDI 130PS, and the Octavia vRS has been available with a 2.0TDI for several years now (at least since the 2.0TDI PD 170PS).

The Golf used to offer the 2.0TDI as the GT, now it's GTDI, pushing it to challenge the GTI.

BMW are working on a hybrid diesel, which should exceed the capablilities of the M3 (if I read the headline right, but of course it is a headline about WIP).

 

[HDi fun]

We're getting closer with the sporty diesels though.

Skoda offered the Fabia vRS as a diesel-only model using the 1.9TDI 130PS, and the Octavia vRS has been available with a 2.0TDI for several years now (at least since the 2.0TDI PD 170PS).

The Golf used to offer the 2.0TDI as the GT, now it's GTDI, pushing it to challenge the GTI.

BMW are working on a hybrid diesel, which should exceed the capablilities of the M3 (if I read the headline right, but of course it is a headline about WIP).

I think we're at the point that it's down to personal preference now. The only major downside with diesels is that they have a tendency to be a little nose heavy due to engine mass. And I still think that the servicing costs are higher than for a petrol car of equivalent performance.

 

[turbonutter69]

Have I converted you pal? You seem to be talking sense now.

 

[HDi fun]

Have I converted you pal? You seem to be talking sense now.

I still torn between the two. I still think that for sheer thrust a well tuned diesel engine is as good as it gets unless you want to run 3.5 litre plus cars.

But, I am consider a 535i V8 because they're so elegantly simple in design that the fuel usage over my 406 will not cost me that much. The performance at all sane speeds (say between 10mph and 99.9mph) will be similar.

The 406 was bloody quick, hence the fact I'm considering a large petrol engine (NAT ASP) to replace it. But I reckon I won't be that much worse off, if at all.


Classic front engine RWD layouts are easy to work on. It also means I can revert to automatic transmission. Never really fancied a diesel auto, certainly not a 4 cylinder one.

 

[SHANNCON]

Hi there. I've just joined and have been reading through most of the comments. Previously I had a MB C320 petrol engine. Performance was "adequate", but, consumption was woeful - unless on a very long trip.
Have purchased a MB C320 CDI with 7Gtronic gearbox. The performance is much better than the petrol and infinitely better for consumption. At the moment (March 2010) petrol is, about, 10% more expensive than diesel, in Australia. The gears have been specially selected for the diesel unit and gearchanges can hardly be felt which makes for a very smooth drive.
I feel that I made the right decision to buy the diesel, mainly for the extra torque, but, also for the current price difference in fuel.
One gripe is that most diesel bowsers are for trucks, in Oz, which means dirty hands and smelly shoes!

 

[obi_waynne]

You are a trend setter then! Keep the Diesel is great campaign going and I'm sure you'll get more car friendly bowsers installed!

 

[SHANNCON]

Don't know about a trend setter.
Most companies are going Turbo Diesel, including MB, BMW, Peugeot, Mazda etc.
However, I'm looking forward to getting a "chip", whatever,once my Warranty expires.
We don't have many diesel tuning companies in OZ. the latest quoted me $1495 (920 Pounds) for a unit. Looking at the UK website I can get the same for, around, 400 Pounds.
Does anyone have any comment on Quality, reliability, etc. etc. for these?

All offer "magical" performance increase with "wonderful" fuel economy. (My words!)

What's the reality here? Are diesels "underpowered" by the manufacture , to protect the petrol variations? Can they be increased in power/toque safely?

I was fully convinced by diesels when I hired Vauxhall Vectra(?) and drove from Heathrow to Edinburgh and still had 25% of fuel left. I couldn't have done that in a petrol engine.

Just throwing ideas around.

Any non rude comments?

 

[obi_waynne]

The only downside really to a reamp is that you need to be fastigious about servicing. You can safely see a power gain of upto around 30% with no loss of reliability. Most diesel remaps will also give better economy unless you drive it with a heavier right foot.

 

[SHANNCON]

I don't have a problem with that. I will get my car serviced by MB during it's warranty, and, as usual afterwards. I realise that it is more expensive, but, I don't have confidence with other companies servicing technically advance cars.
I suppose I am asking whether performance "chips" can be removed before regular maintenance so that they are not identified.

On another, unrelated matter. Please find another joke! No offence, but, it comes up every time.

 

[HDi fun]

Don't chip it under any circumstances. A professional remap is much much safer.

MB dealers won't care whether you've mapped the car or not. It's not in their interests to squeal to MB Australia.

 

[Poddy]

Shame Audi did not carry on with there V12 diesel's in the R8 and maybe bringing the V12 config back into the main market and not just rare or super cars.

they now have a v10 producing the same power. if you have a look on the Audi Website for the Q7 V12 you'll see its the same engine as what they used in the R15

I still think that for sheer thrust a well tuned diesel engine is as good as it gets unless you want to run 3.5 litre plus cars.

I don't think this is true. Personaly i prefer Diesels for there economy but who wouldn't and i won't deny that a turbo petrol is a better performing car over a diesel.

but to put it simply, if i had an everyday car, the engine would be a diesel, for a performance car a petrol.


Something else you'd need to take into account performance wise, if you tuned a 2.0 TDI properly, you could easily reach 200bhp. BUT

tune a 2.0 T properly and youls easily reach 350bhp (Evo 10 - FQ360)

 

[944]

one think i hate obout disels is sound.They have that ugly sound compared to petrol!!!talking about racing disels take a look at WTCC...tdi leons are owning...BMW is also considering of puting a disel model into the reces....anyway for me disels will never be suitable for sports cars...

 

[WLBjork]

Something else you'd need to take into account performance wise, if you tuned a 2.0 TDI properly, you could easily reach 200bhp. BUT

tune a 2.0 T properly and youls easily reach 350bhp (Evo 10 - FQ360)

Nope, they'll be about the same.

Firstly, a straight remap will get 211hp out of the current 2.0TDI CRs (as well as the preceeding PDs).

Secondly, Celtic Tuning have uprated one engine (and if I understand right, it's the 1.9TDI PD unit) to 300hp.

Further, if that Evo X FQ360 is similar to the IX-MR400 then it has very heavily upgraded internals and a larger-than-normal turbo-supercharger with titanium fittings.

The key is though, that the diesel has more torque than the petrol - which is mainly what HDi is referring to with his "thrust" comment.

 

[Poddy]

Nope, they'll be about the same.

Firstly, a straight remap will get 211hp out of the current 2.0TDI CRs (as well as the preceeding PDs).

Secondly, Celtic Tuning have uprated one engine (and if I understand right, it's the 1.9TDI PD unit) to 300hp.

Further, if that Evo X FQ360 is similar to the IX-MR400 then it has very heavily upgraded internals and a larger-than-normal turbo-supercharger with titanium fittings.

The key is though, that the diesel has more torque than the petrol - which is mainly what HDi is referring to with his "thrust" comment.

If im right here, then there 300bhp from a TDI compared to 360 from the Evo X

not sure if the extra torque would count for much with 60bhp less but thats just my understanding.

i could be wring

 

[pgarner]

not sure if the extra torque would count for much with 60bhp less but thats just my understanding.

i could be wring

depends on where in the rev range it was used.

say both were tottinling around 2500rpm and both put the foot down the diesel would pull away 1st

 

[HDi fun]

Definitely. That's why in general driving (where you don't have any need to go near the red line) high tech diesels feel so bloody rapid. They are, too. It's not all an illusion.

Some diesels still have annoyingly narrow 'useful power' bands but that, too, is disappearing with the widespread adoption of both variable geometry turbochargers and ever more ridiculously outrageous fuel injector rail pressures.

Petrol engines are progressing as well though. They've been deprived of development cash for some time (because of the love affair with diesel in recent years) but VAG's veritable arsenal of TFSi engines should not be ignored. Nor should Ford's brilliant 5 cylinder 2.5 turbo unit (315bhp in the Focus RS!).

 

[indiaman]

Diesel engines are inherently more efficient than Petrol engines, the new generation of Diesels are way ahead of their petrol counterparts. way to go, Diesel!!!

 

[HDi fun]

Let's just hope that the fuel companies don't start selling fuel by mass instead of volume. The calorific value of a kilo of diesel is similar to that of a kilo of petrol.

I am a hardened diesel fan but I do try to be 'diplomatic' to satisfy the boneheads who will still argue that a 80bhp petrol car will outrun a 300bhp diesel one.

 

[turbonutter69]

Who argues that Hdi?
Obviously a 80bhp petrol will loose to a 300bhp diesel. But so would the diesel if it was the other way round.
Diesel are more fuel efficient than petrols but that is out the window these day due to the running cost of diesels.

 

[HDi fun]

Everythings too bloody expensive to run these days. If you could invent a car that ran on tap water they'd tax that as well.

 

[cavy andy]

they lost that image with common rail diesel with less engine clatter and petrol rivaling power. With the price of fuel they realy do make more sence

 

[HDi fun]

they lost that image with common rail diesel with less engine clatter and petrol rivaling power. With the price of fuel they realy do make more sence

At the expense of opening some old wounds I think you generally get more performance £ for £ with diesel. Where I'm less convinced is the reliability over extended mileages.

Dual mass flywheels, hydraulic engine mounts and outrageously complex fuel injection might well take their respective tolls over ten years of ownership. These are expensive parts to replace outside of the usual 3 yr warranty.

 

[turbonutter69]

But with diesel being dearer than petrol is it actually more economical?

 

[HDi fun]

But with diesel being dearer than petrol is it actually more economical?

Very possibly not.

I've thought this for some time if it's a long term proposition. For performance £ for £ at purchase price and fuel economy I'd take diesel over a similarly priced petrol model so long as someone else is paying for the long term maintenance.

Most of the current diesel technology is ridiculously complex and there is not yet a network of independent specialists who really know what they're at.

At the moment I'd be very likely to take a 6cyl 3.0 NASP petrol (no turbo means no heat problems, no need for sixty quid a fill engine oil etc etc) over a 4cyl 2.0 twin turbo diesel as a long term option. Performance wise, in a large car they'd be comparable. THe diesel might well have a slight advantage.

But the diesel WILL demand more prescriptive servicing and over time the costs add up, even without the slightly higher fuel price.

So, in short, I'm torn.

 

[turbonutter69]

Thats exactly my point. Diesels are better on fuel but the fuel costs more so it's a no win as far as I can see.

 

[HDi fun]

Thats exactly my point. Diesels are better on fuel but the fuel costs more so it's a no win as far as I can see.

Not that much better though. The stresses that a high performance diesel engine puts upon its components are huge.

I still would not go for petrol just for performance because I think that is outdated now. Diesel engines do deliver the torque and acceleration in spades; they're also very quiet and refined. Until it's out-of-warranty-maintenance-time. DMF £1000; most common rail diesels still use belts for the valvetrain drive; lots of petrol cars use duplex chains.

But I certainly wouldn't buy diesel simply to save money. I'd buy new for the huge range of usable torque. You can stay in the same gear from 1500rpm right to 4500rpm with max torque all the way with a diesel. Treble your speed in one gear - 30-90mph without a change. They are quick. A peaky petrol engine would require one, maybe two changes.

Much as I promote diesel, I was it's earliest hater, and I'm not fond of the way the economics of owning one long term has panned out.

If I bought, say, a 4yr old 5 series with the 4.4 V8 petrol engine I will rarely see more than 30mpg. But the engine is classicly simple and does not demand much more than servicing at the correct times. It does not require specialist attention every 12,000 miles.

If I kept that car 10 years I'd be no poorer than having 3 Renault Laguna 1.9dCi models in the same period.

 

[WLBjork]

Depends on mileage, and how you treat the car.

To put things into perspective, driving 10,000 miles a year and achieving the average fuel economy displayed at whatgreencar I found the following costs:

Octavia vRS Diesel - £1150 fuel + £150 road tax = £1300

Octavia vRS Petrol - £1440 fuel + £215 road tax = £1655

BMW 5 series with 4.4L engine = £2240 fuel + £405 road tax = £2645

That's roughly saved me the cost of the DMF in a year - and I'll only need one every 5-6 years.

However, it seems it is possible to recondition the DMF, which works out cheaper (out of warranty anyway) - one chap had his DMF reconditioned and a new clutch for a total of £335 (interestingly at the Clutch Centre in Arnold or Basford, here in Nottingham), and it lasted for at least another 40K miles (even after a remap).

 

[pgarner]

Dual mass flywheels, hydraulic engine mounts and outrageously complex fuel injection might well take their respective tolls over ten years of ownership. These are expensive parts to replace outside of the usual 3 yr warranty.

these are also on alot of petrols now.
OEM clutch, DMF and release bearing plus fitting im looking at close to a grand

 

[HDi fun]

Petrol engines are a lot less savage on these components. The flywheel torque is much lower