4-1 or 4-2-1 headers ?

KYRIARXOS

Full member
Points
183
Location
Cyprus
Car
Honda Civic SIR 1.6
first of all, hello guys, i've been reading the articles from this site and i must say that they are pretty impressive and helpful.

i own a civic si 1998 with a b16a engine

i currently changed the intake/filter and the exaust. also removed the cat but with stock pipes. well, i must say that i am pretty satisfied with it's performance since i am holding on pretty well against an fto 2.0 v6 mivec.
first and second gear i am in front of him, on the third gear he comes next to me and on forth gear i am loosing ground.

i am planning to do another upgrade on my car. at first i was thinking of changing the cam gears or the flywheel or get a vtec controller. but now i might go for headers which i think it's the best thing to do.

i did a small research on headers and i am between 5zigen and vibrant ( http://www.verociousmotorsports.com/Shop-by-Category/Honda_Headers-and-Manifolds ) headers. i can't go for spoon/mugen/jun... due to low budget :(
and they told me that those are the best headers for the money i am planning to spend.

but i can't decide whether to get a 4-1 or a 4-2-1.

from the articles i read the 4-1 gives you more power at high revs and 4-2-1 at low revs and the 4-2-1 is more appropreat for street racing instead of the 4-1 which is for drag.

well... i need more torgue... but i don't know which one to get.... at a race it's logical to have a low gear so that my revs will be high, close to vtec, so the 4-2-1 will not help me that much (i think) and when i change gear my revs are still high (example: if i change from first to second my revs will be at least at 6k with the second gear)

so i don't know what to choose. the thing is that i heard too many good things about the 4-2-1 that i convinced myself to get one of those... but since i don't want to regret it, i thought it would be better to ask for advice.

by the way, i heard that the 4-1 is not that good at low revs... but will the performance of the car be worse than the stock ones on low revs?

also since i am gonna change headers, i'm thinking of changing the pipes to a 2.5 inch. the headers are 2 inches but i can also get a 2.5 convertor but i don't know if this is wisable to do it.

(by the way, i am not planning to turn my car into a rocket :p since i am planning to keep this car. that is why i don't wanna change things on the engine, since it lowers the longevity of the car, for now)

thanks in advance
 
Heres the easy one for you to rememebr ;)

4-2-1 = Torque.

4-1 = BHP.

So it's a matter of preference to be honest and Torque is what i'd always go for to be honest. My V6 engine runs 2 x 3-1 then thos 2 join into one so is 6-2-1 manifold which gives emence torque . So as said, it's personal preference.
 
4-2-1 would be my suggestion, unless you raise the rev limit to 9000-10000! IMHO the only thing i'd stick a 4-1 manifold would be a proper race car engine f1-rally etc...
 
4-1 is your best bet mate. In all honesty Hondas need the s*** revving out of them to get them going so a 4-1 will help out more at the top end of the rev range (where the power is with the B16 mate).
 
prince, you are the only one till now that suggested the 4-1.
if i go with logic, on a race, you just shift down to a lower gear where the vtec will kick, so a 4-1 is more appropreate, i think. so you are right on the 4-1. the otherones that suggested the 4-2-1 are also right of course, which will give me more torque at lower revs so that it will hit the vtec revs in less time than before.

so, Prince, in case that i choose the 4-1, will my torque be worse than the stock headers, at lower revs
 
If you use that set-up but go the hole hog and have tubular manifold with matched, enlarged headers/downpipes you will probably see a gain in both just not very much torque but more gains in the BHP area and vice verser. Just make sure your whole exhaust system is matched with the same thickness or that will lose you a bit of power (i spent £800 on exhaust work to get my old V6 Calibra running right)
 
It does cost a lot when it adds up... Decent exhaust (mine is £600 new), manifold, de-cat, headers ect. Hondas have that little torque at low rpm, even if you did lose torque (which you won't btw), you wouldn't notice. A 4-1 set up is much better when your power band is high, just like Honda power bands are.
 
thank you guys very much. you really helped me a lot.
i decided to take your advice Prince and go for the 4-1 headers.

it will take me a while to gather the $$ to buy the headers...pipes...silencer, but a soon as i buy them, i'll post some photos of them and some photos during installation
 
If its any use mate i bought a 4-2-1 header for mine and it has made a difference up top. Its not a Vtec but you can definately notice a difference after 4k revs.
 
Hello everyone, btw its my first post on this forum. Let me just say that Ive been wondering about headers for ages now, I have a B18C in my civic and my friend has bought a golf mk4 1.8T GTI few days ago so we raced. First we started at 2nd gear about 3000rpm on my gauge and his golf shot off, but then we tried again and at same speed I was still in 1st gear and boy did I leave him :) You guys' posts got rid of my doubts and 4-1 is definetaly the choice since 4-2-1 is more of a civilised option, in my case if I buy an upgrade for a car that means I wanna race in it sooner or later, If i wanna race that means I want to keep it in VTEC. Therefore its clear that if we want to spend money on our cars its best to support the whole (variable valve timing and electronic lift control system) :lol: sorry I just wanted everyone to know that at least some of my knowledge is supported :blink1:
KYRIARXOS let us know as soon as u get your stuff, Id like to know what u think about it in case you get it before me since i havent got the money just yet.
 
as i said before, I am definitely going for a 4-1.
So I did a small research about what the brand. The truth is that I didn’t want something too expensive, so Spoon is definitely not in my choices : P
After reading some topics, I heard good things about Vibrant. I even heard that they are better than DC headers. Anyway……
I found 2 topics in some forums that changed my mind completely… well…. They confused me even more about the headers brand.
One topic has dynos of 5-6 different headers brands (like Toda, Headertech, Hytech, DC Sports) all installed on the same car( an integra if I am not mistaken).
Anyway…. As I read the commends about Vibrant vs DC. I was disappointed from vibrant. The dyno picture unfortunately has an error for this comparison. But after reading “we expected the Vibrant with its larger runners to make a bit of an increase over this number, the opposite occurred” and the fact that they even gave vibrant a second try and the same results occurred… I didn’t need a dyno picture to get the picture :p
I read the whole thing and I came to a conclusion that Weapon R is a VERY good brand for headers. They are cheap and give a lot of performance. The guy on that topic wrote that those headers cost around $850 MSRP. So I went to the official site of Weapon R to search for headers for my car (civic Si Sedan 1999 model (b16a)).
This is the link:
http://weapon-r.com/english/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=572&products_id=6115
as you can see…. Those headers for my car cost MSRP: $200.00—NOW $100.00(Save: 50% off)
the vibrant headers I found them around $410.
And now I am asking myself… and you of course, how is it possible a header that cost 200 and now with the offer… $100, to be better than the one that cost $410 and the think is that …. From that site that I found with the dynos, DC had better performance than vibrant…. And Weapon R had like … 6 Hp and 1.7 more torque than DC, so that means… Weapon R are better than Vibrant.
Also I found another topic on a forum that a guy that has an integra tsx, gained around 20 hp and 4+ torque than stock headers… there are also 2 dynos, one before and one after the installation of headers. He said he bought his headers for around $600 and that was about the price I found in the official site of Weapon R for his headers….. but mine are only $100 ???
Not that I am complaining about giving only $100 and purchase a very good quality headers… but something isn’t right.
What do you think guys??
I didn’t post the sites because I thought maybe you will mind posting sites of other forums. So I am asking for approval right now :p
You can also check out the sites. I believe that they are VERY helpful for those that can’t decide on the brand of headers. So just let me know whether to post the sites or not.
Thank you guys
 
anyway... since no one replied till now
i'll just post the sites to help out the others

this site is the one that has many dynos of various headers:

http://www.team-integra.net/forum/display_topic_threads.asp?ForumID=10&TopicID=70812

and this site is the one that gained 20hp only with the Weapon r Header :

http://tsxclub.com/forums/1st-gen-engine/37360-weapon-r-race-header-dyno.html

eventhough i was going for a 4-1 header as PRINCE said and i really appreciate his help and i was definitely going for a 4-1 (i was thinking about the Vibrant(cheap and good quality) that's what i thought), now seeing dynos and reviews on weapon-r, i kind of changed my mind.

also i said on my previous post that the price of the headers i found was too low. i just noticed that there were 2 kind of headers. street and racing.

the 4-1 that i found were the street ones.
unfortunately, the racing ones are 4-2-1, but gaining around 20hp from a 4-2-1 i don't think that is bad :p
but if i could find a 4-1 weapon-r racing header, i would choose that one
(always talking about the weapon-r)

the bad thing, is that the civic si headers, are the street ones, but i found the integra 1990-01 RACING headers around $249.99. that's not bad at all.
there is also a dyno for those headers at the official site of Weapon-R
Makes 23.7Hp and 30.3TQ with JUST THE HEADER.

the thing is that i don't know yet, if it;s compatible for my engine (b16a)

integra RACING headers:
http://weapon-r.com/english/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=572&products_id=6122

Civic SI STREET headers:
http://weapon-r.com/english/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=572&products_id=6115

as for the exhaust system i was thinking for the Apexi N1
or the MagnaFlow

if i am not mistaken, the magnaflow comes with a test pipe, so i was thinking to choose that one since i can remove completely the catalyst convertor with the test pipe.

both brands, have an exhaust systems for the civic Si but for the coupe. mine is saloon/sedan, so i still don't know if they fit my car, but i believe that it won't we a problem.

i hope the sites will help those who are trying to decide what BRAND of headers to buy, at least, at low prices :p

if anyone can help me out deciding about the exhaust systems, or whether installing integra headers on my civic will be a problem, is always welcome to help !!!

For the headers.... one of the BEST brand, that i heard are the SKUNK2, i was looking to find a 4-1 but i couldn;t find any. i all the times find a 4-2-1
but this brand is a little..... too much for my budget.
so those who want to spend some money on headers... skunk2 is the way to go!!
 
As long as the manifold/headers connect to a B series engine then it should fit. Skunk2 is expensive but you get what you pay for tbh. I personally don't believe those figures they are giving either. Never believe things like that as each car responds differently to each component. I would definitely stick with 4-1 mate as this will help your Civic much more than a 4-2-1.

Exhaust systems designed for a coupe or hatchback WILL NOT fit a saloon. You may even have to go custom on the exhaust.

Some honest advice mate... Save up for the right parts. You will only regret buying cheap products.
 
Ok Prince, thanks again for the advice, and for the headers and for the exhaust system.
i was really going for those ( weapon r ) headers.
anyway, i still have time before making any tunning on my baby. since i am still a university student (for master) i have to wait to get a job first :p
but because i care for my car TOOOOO much and since i want to get the best quality for the money i am planing to spend ( not that much for a skunk2 :( ), i am doing my research, in order, when the time comes, to know exactly what to do and what to buy.
i really appreciate your help. i don't worry about the exhaust system that much.... as you said i can go for a custom one. just have to buy the resonator and the muffler (i believe that it's cheaper to buy them my own instead of buying them from an exhaust shop) and the rest i'll leave it to my exhaust expert.
i am more concern about the headers. any brand in mind that you want to suggest ??
i can go to a mechanic or something and tell him that i want headers and exhaust and stop with this whole research (and trouble for you answering all those questions), but unfortunately, they charge too much for low-to-medium quality parts and for the installation. instead of giving all those money for a part that doesn't actually represent the money i spent, i prefere to spend more money on buying the parts my own, and just pay for the installation, if i don't do it myself.
i can see in my country, many hondas on DC Sport headers, but for some reason, i don't know why, i don't really like those ones.
i want to go for a 4-1 but it's kind of hard to find a decent one for a "low-medium" price
i searched on TODA ( expensive and a 4-2-1 ), spoon ( tooooo expensive, for me), 5zigen (there are onyl 4-2-1), greddy(only 4-2-1), buddyclub (only 4-2-1), vibrant sport (ok, i found a 4-1), weapon-r (found a 4-1 but they are street headers and not racing. also, they cost 100 usd (normal price 200 usd), a thing that is odd, and i also believe, that what you pay is what you get :D ) and also skunk2 (found only 4-2-1(i looked at the official site))
i don't remember any other brands that i looked at.
thanks again for the help. you helped me a lot to clear up some things and as i can see from the number of views, this topic concerns a lot of people, that they need help regarding headers.
thanks again !!
 

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