1.4 NA to Turbo

jermaniac

Full member
Points
6
Location
Assen
Car
Pug 205 & 323f DiTD
I am planning to bolt on a turbo to a small engine running 0.5bar.
It's a peugeot 205 1360cc 8valve injection with a compression ratio of 9.3:1
This should all be fine, I got the basics worked out, but my question is:
How will the ECU respond to that bit of extra air?
Are there products on the market wich allow more petrol into the engine when the boost gets up?
I want to remain the original ECU, no remapping or replace it with an expensive full mapable ECU.
And are bigger injectors necceserry?
My goal is to get 100-115 bhp instead of the original 75bhp.

That's the biggest lump to get over with, most people tell me it's the easist way to get a fully mapable ECU but I want to bypass the original ECU to force more petrol in the engine (when needed).
 
I presume its a deisel ? because you certainly cant get nearly a 50% power increase without lots of mods on a petrol engine

I dont want to be harsh but you cant just get that power increase at a stroke (if only ) and Im also not sure you understand the way the fuel system works.

Bigger injectors dont supply more petrol in themselves they just raise the amount of fuel that can be supplied when working at 100% ( you can only get a certain amount of fuel through a certain size hole )

The fuel supply is electronically controlled by the ecu . You cant just take it out.

Out of the factory the ecu is set to meter the amount fed into the engine through the rev range. Remapping the ecu changes this amount as well as the fuel air mix. ( and a few other things)

And If you leave the ecu out or bypass it what are you going to use to control the fuel ?
It wont do it on its own
 
^^^ Not likely to be diesel with a compresion ratio of 9.3:1 ^^^

I think we're all coming to the same conclusion which is change the car.

Go and buy a 205 GTi 1.6 with 105bhp - keep it standard.
 
didnt read that bit and not up on diesels anyway

Put bluntly if its a petrol with a c/ratio of 9.3 and you turbo it you will do something bad as the cr is far too high.
 
There is a bloke called Colin, he turbo's NA cars, and he is rather good at it. Google 'Pug Performance'. he can give you all the facts etc...

I seriously doubt you could turbo an NA 205 without remapping the ecu...
 
thanks for the response friends...
So it's sure it's not easy to fool the ecu without touching it.
Can't I use a ECU from the 1.6 or 1.9 engine?
Wait, it won't get enough fuel to the inlet for a turbo or would it?

Note that I want to push it to only 0.5 bar
 
Buddy, I know it's hard but let it go! These chaps have advised you and shared their wisdom with you because they don't want to see you throw away good money. ;)
 
CR is not even high let alone far too high. My GT3 was running 20psi on a 9:1 CR and all the Honda boys run boost on their V-taks with factory CR (11.5:1 if it's a K20a!). IIRC 8psi on my mates turbo'd EP3 made 297hp on standard internals ;)

However, engine swap or new car. It's not going to be worth the cost or hassle.
 
CR is not even high let alone far too high. My GT3 was running 20psi on a 9:1 CR and all the Honda boys run boost on their V-taks with factory CR (11.5:1 if it's a K20a!). IIRC 8psi on my mates turbo'd EP3 made 297hp on standard internals ;)

However, engine swap or new car. It's not going to be worth the cost or hassle.

Hondas especially v tecs are completely different to his engine WHICH THE COMMENT WAS ABOUT.

The cr you can run after adding a turbo is decided by the engine design- The engines yuu quote are far more advanced that the engine in question

And if you are looking for nearly 50% more power without any mods apart from a turbo on that engine it is going to create a lot of heat and stress and most engines like the one in question wont hold up . And when that is the case lowering the cr is the way to go.

for example mine runs a relatively low cr but still produces a lot over 200bhp per litre. If I ftted vcam ( nissans equivalent of v tec ) I could raise the cr. but not before
 
Rofl no. How is an archaic 60's 1.4 8v GT3 engine different to the engine in this car? Fundamentally it's not. V-tec doesn't make as much difference as you seem to think, there are tons of Evos out there running 10:1 all day long on pump fuel but then they must have all blown to bits by now according to you?

Just admit you're stuck in 1982 with low comp big boost engines. Look at some of the compression ratios these (non-v-tek y0) small engined turbo cars are rolling out of the factory with these days.
 
coming up with another one or ten examples doesnt change the details for the engine in question

my only two references to v tec were that

1) it was a sign of a more modern engine design (So as above ) and
2) that a similar fitment on my car would allow a higher cr (which I dont need)

I am interested to find out how I am stuck in the early eighties (and where the .........1982 come from ?)



Back to the subject of the thread it might be worth noting that the guys plan is to run a turbo on a na engine at 0.5 bar and is aiming for a 40% power increase withou any other addittional mods other than injectors ...........................

Also it is a simple fact that when fitting a turbo to an NA engine not designed for one ( the topic ) it is normal to consider the need to lower the cr .
 
a rising rate fuel pressure regulator should sort out the extra fuel.
Could this work?
How could I do this? By getting the original fuelline and make a Y splitter?
I have a image in my head, but not sure how to put it in words...

@MasterAuron: That's exactly what I think, 1liter 2 cilinder Turbo of FIAT for example, delivered in the Panda and 500 (Twinair).

What you all think I can get out of the original 1.4 75 bhp with my original idea?
 
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Replace the original fuel regulator with a rising rate one, to be honest with you, if you are asking such basic, questions you are not up to the job.
 
That's not the question, my concern is the original ECU wich limits the amount of fuel injected, I believe.
 
the ecu will try to provide the fuel the engine needs.

EDIT: has a 205 even got an ecu, isn't it single point injection (just a glorified carburator)
 
But how does the ECU know, when bolting on a turbo, that it needs more fuel? I don't think the ECU is not THAT smart. My first thaugt for this project was indeed to use a fuel regulator to give more fuel when boosting. Not shure it might work with the ECU, that's why I wanted to bypass the ECU, just give it fuel right from the pump.
 
has a 205 even got an ecu, isn't it single point injection (just a glorified carburator)

Yes it has an ECU, even readable for errors, and yes, it's a singlepoint injection.
There is an other person in the Netherlands who had done it before I do, but he got a mapable ECU, other exhaust manifold (self-made, looks bad), but the rest is all original, so I know it's possible.
Only it's not detailed.

*Removed URL link as per our T&C's*
 
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This is one for Brett.... But I'll have a go at answering.....

I believe the 205 does have a fully programmable ECU, locked per manufacturers spec... . But you'll reach its fueling limits quickly if you add forced induction... you could probably run it on very, very low bar, but whats the point in that? You will not gain much, and you'll have fueling problems from the outright... you'll need to uprate the carb, cams and injectors and probably have a fully mappable ECU to determine the correct fuel to air ratio. The standard ECU can only take so much.. Also an XSI, or the 1.3 Rallye head, uprated cams etc... Honestly... Your best bet would be to transplant a 1.9 gti engine in and map it accordingly, or get bike carbs (which is a common mod, but works well) which will more then likely be the cheaper option AND will have greater gains.
 
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Looking for another engine,
it's a 2.0 Turbo from the 406/Citroen XM I stumbled upon. (150hp)
Only thing is, can the car itself handle it?
It's not a GTi...
Gti Subframe, reinforced braking and go?
 
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As said by many in many threads it is almost always cheaper and better to go and buy the car you want in the frist place
And if insurance rules are they same where you are that will be less as well.
 
Why should I?
The car weighs only 850kg.
It;s also been done before.
An engine for 350 bucks ain't much, can't get a fast car with that kind of money that also handles like a go-kart.

So another engine still is the cheaper option.
And it should be fun to do
 
Transplanting the XM engine from either the Citreon or 406 will cause problems aswell... Unless your a master fabricator and can fabricate an intire new sub frame and engine mounting points. Also fuel tanks will need to be changed.... The 205 1.3 was just a smaller, detuned gti 1.6... (I think) Bike carb a 1.6 and you'll get almost double the original HP and its so much easier. That or transplant a 1.9gti engine in.

You signed up to this site looking for advice, and we have given you our knowledge and wisdom. Your more then welcome to try this, but if your asking NOT to modify anything else or even buy a standalone ECU management system then whats the point?
 
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Look at it this way... Are you mechanically minded and skilled enough to pull this off? If so... Do you have the funds to perform such a task? If you want to keep with the 1.4 TU go with a standalone system and for heavens sake put some Yamaha bike carbs on to it.

We don't mean to offend, we're here to help!
 
How are we gonna get a carb fed engine through current emissions testing?

I am unaware of emission regulations over in the Netherlands, maybe the OP can point us in the right direction? I presume as being in the EU I guess they're similar.... It was just speculation. Offering suggestions as to what he could possibly do?
 
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I don't think this engine will live for much longer. It's leaking oil from the fillercap.

The regulations for fitting another engine with different cc is strict to the original factory papers. It can be changed but the entire car has to be tested. So we might get an 1.6 from the automatic models (wich are everywere with low mileage and low prices).
The difference is 15hp so it's easier to talk myself out of a ticket (or worse) if it comes to the question.

Only difference between the 1.6 GTi and the automatic is the compression ratio and a katalysator. I'm looking for possibilities getting it to work with a manual (diesel) gearbox...

Anyone had experience with this swap/engine/gearbox?
 
The 1.6 gti will go straight over... I am not too sure on the gearbox though. I think it had milder ratios then the 1.9. But the automatic one, I have no idea....
 
I don't think this engine will live for much longer. It's leaking oil from the fillercap.

The regulations for fitting another engine with different cc is strict to the original factory papers. It can be changed but the entire car has to be tested. So we might get an 1.6 from the automatic models (wich are everywere with low mileage and low prices).
The difference is 15hp so it's easier to talk myself out of a ticket (or worse) if it comes to the question.

Only difference between the 1.6 GTi and the automatic is the compression ratio and a katalysator. I'm looking for possibilities getting it to work with a manual (diesel) gearbox...

Anyone had experience with this swap/engine/gearbox?

The way to do any engine/gearbox conversionis to keep it simple - This is the route anyone goes down who has done an engine swop. Antything can be made to fit as long as yopu have the skills and the buget ( or just the latter)

You dont want other make of engine because the mountings will be different let alone the engine external dimensons.

As far as different ccs goes apart from the engine case transfers I cant see how anyone would know the difference as long as it is the same make. As for tickets i would just say its standard and if it isnt it was like this when you bought it so nothing to do with you.
 
you'll blow the engine, it's not meant to be a turbo so don't turbo it. If you looking for more power then buy a car that can handle more power. Not being mean but a 1.4 205 isn't ment for speed :L Get the gti if you like the looks! :)
 

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