Winter Tyres Problem

A

andycuz

Full member
Points
21
Location
England, Manchester
Car
Ford Focus TDCi
Hi guys I'm new to this forum.

I have an issue with my car running on winter tyres.
I have a Ford Focus 1.6 TDCi 2009 with Michelin Alpin A4 Winter Tyres in the UK, on Saturday I was driving up my street which is a steady incline not very steep and my car got stuck 3 times in about 4 inches of snow, I tried turning off the ESP and traction control, I even turned round and tried in reverse but it just would not move I just got wheel spin. I tried being very light on the accelerator even tried just easing off the clutch to get it to bite but it just slipped. The tyres would just not bite the snow, I then tried my tyres at 30 psi but made no difference from the 36.

The tyres are almost new with a lot of tread, Ford state that the original tyres should be at 33 psi, but I pumped my winter tyres to 36 psi to try and compensate for some of the wobbly ride winter tyres can give.

I have a Kia Cee'd 1.6 CRDi with the exact same Michelin tyres and when I took this car out just after it got through the snow absolutely fine, no wheel spin or sliding and it doesn't have ESP or traction control. Even goes up steep hills in the snow without any issue. 2 years ago the Kia Cee'd went everywhere on a pair of Kumho KW23 winter tyres better than the Ford Focus did.

Can anyone offer me any advice as I have been able to get everywhere in the Kia with winter tyres but the Focus just gets stuck. Could it be that the pressure in the tyres needs raising higher than 36 psi if the car is slightly heavier, or is it just the fact that the Focus is utter cr@p in snow?

Btw both cars have 205/55/R16 tyres and both have about the same power and torque with the Focus having less, the Focus is slightly heavier by about 10kgs.

I cannot seem to understand how my Kia Cee'd can crunch through the snow and the Ford Focus can't I must be missing something here but seem to have exhausted ideas, the only thing I haven't done is raise the PSI a lot higher to say 38 or even up to 42 to see if this works, problem is now all the snow has gone so I can't test it.

Cheers

Andrew
 
New tyres can be less grippy than those that have done a few miles to bed in. It does sound really strange though, it should be better on winter tyres.
 
When on snow it is usefull to DEcrease tyre pressure. Try it! ;) And as said above new tyres must peel of their first layer to become all they are ment to be.

1 bar is about 15 PSI? Isn't? If so do decreasing steps of 3 PSI until you get snow traction. Remember that is for snow only! When roads will be clear again feel free to increase tyre pressure to compensate side wall softness again - just as you correctly assume it will be.

Please report your findings here. If you do right you should feel increased traction on snow, but when on clear road you are certainly need more pressure.
That is one of those ancient extinted wisdoms only old farts know... ;)
 
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The tyres have done about 7000 miles, I did try dropping them right down and when checking the pressure they were at 25 psi but they still wouldn't grip. The Kia doesn't have any traction controls just ebd and abs. I thought in snow you increase the pressure but on ice you decrease it?
 
andycuz said:
The tyres have done about 7000 miles, I did try dropping them right down and when checking the pressure they were at 25 psi but they still wouldn't grip. The Kia doesn't have any traction controls just ebd and abs. I thought in snow you increase the pressure but on ice you decrease it?
Click to expand...

What are you trying to achieve by decreasing the pressure is to make the tyre somewhat oval shaped and so even tyre walls can grab some portion of snow. Where is that Russian guy when we need him? :lol: See, I came from poor country and I'm one one of that last generation wich needed to drive in technically absolite vehicles and winter tyres where just imaginative word. We have had always need to decrease the tyre pressure when on snow just to be able to come home at all.

If that does'nt help either is something wrong with tyres or with expectations or with technic used behind the wheel.
 
I do think you're correct in decreasing the pressures but u think that is for standard summer tyres, I think with winter tyres they have a very different block design in the tread I think the narrower the tyre the better.
 
andycuz said:
I do think you're correct in decreasing the pressures but u think that is for standard summer tyres, I think with winter tyres they have a very different block design in the tread I think the narrower the tyre the better.
Click to expand...

Yes narrower tyre the better for snow. In other hand imagine stiff peace of rubber with no flexing against the snow and then imagine somewhat soft shape which adopt more easilly. Well, you got nothing to loose here! You already got those tyres and all you can loose is some time for testing. Don't expect wonders on snow! Difference will be between manage to go uphill against not going uphill. Hardly you will see benefits that will alow you to drive like you are on clear surface.
Being a diesel Focus got to have heavier front end and that should be benefit in snow.
And at last, maybe out from some reason that tyre does not feel good on Focus? It is known that tyres which do well on one car does not do egsact the same on another from some reason.

Tell me again, what are the size of tyres on Focus and size on Kia?
 
The Kia and focus are both 205/55/R16 I am wondering if it is a case of the tyres not going well with car therefore not a good match. Maybe a different brand would be better.
 
Don't know really! Maybe it is so.
All you can do is try to decreasing pressure in steps of 3 PSI and see if traction improves at some point...or try the egsact oposite! Inflate them to push the midlle of tyre out somewhat. If you got will to do tests you can loose only your time.
I must say that dimension is hardly good choise for snow. Pretty wide and short side walls.
It is good choise for winter if you got only few snowy days because it will be resistant to low temperatures and able to maintain most of sommer tyre abillities during winter, but for snow it is not the first choise.
 
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I've had about a few different sets on my Focus and the only different I have noticed is with the Bridgestones I have on now.
They are normal tyre's not winter tyre's and they aren't that bad actually on a flat surface but soon as it starts to get hilly the car is stuck.
I always put mine being rubbish in the snow down to the wideish tyres.
 
I think it might be generally a combination of the car being bad in snow and the tyres are too wide for snow but what's more annoying is my other car the Kia ceed is unstoppable in the snow with the same brand of tyres of the exact same size. Very odd.
 
I would've thought a heavier nose would be better as it gives better traction. Though I'm thinking the tyres might have to be inflated higher to push the tread out more in order to bite the snow in front of the tyre.
 
After all those information i got no clue what's the matter here! Maybe bad bash or maybe what we got here is a proof how same tyres work differently on various vehicles.
 
I thought maybe the geometry but I've had this done on a hunter photographic full alignment system which cost a bomb. I can only think it is the car and tyre combination. Michelin have got back to me saying they don't really know why either.
 
Weird, i drove mine in the snow the other day (for the first time) and it was brilliant. I have Pirelli P6000 tyres on which is an all seasons tyre and it even managed to get up the steep hill to my girlfriends house.
 
were you on fresh snow or compacted snow / ice ?
ive driven on fresh 6" snow no problem on all year tyres but as soon as it starts to get compacted thats when the issues occour.

the fact you were simply spinning to me tells me that you were sitting on ice and not snow and the wheel spinning would have melted this meaning you would have had water on the ice so no grip at all.
 
It was compacted snow in the tracks but I slid the car over into the fresh snow and it still wouldn't grip. I switched off ESP it was no different, I tried in reverse and still no difference. I can only think its a combination of the cars weight, tyre pressures and perhaps either my right foot or the throttle response, Michelin have come back to me saying something similar. Worryingly I would not like to live somewhere where they have a lot more snow with a ford focus and winter tyres. I'd get a Kia ceed. The snow has all gone now so it's not even as though I can test different things.
 
What is the DOT of tyres?
Maybe they are NOS - new old stock and being in inapropriate storage?
 
turbonutter69 said:
Is the Focus a Zetec?
Click to expand...

Possibly a silly question here but I have never seen it asked before - this could be the reason why! :blink:

When people like Ford etc make their new cars, they test them on all kinds of terrain and different temperatures to see how they perform!
While they are testing in cold icy conditions with possibly different tyre choices available to them, why do they not announce what tyres have performed the best on their cars under those conditions and then offer them as an option? :confused:
 
T9 man said:
While they are testing in cold icy conditions with possibly different tyre choices available to them, why do they not announce what tyres have performed the best on their cars under those conditions and then offer them as an option? :confused:
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I don't think they testing with max performance in mind. Rather to gain satisfactory and SAFE behavior for all kinds of drivers. Just as almost manufacturers sets the suspension to understeer a bit 'cause regular driver will instinctively put of his leg from gas pedal and in that way unintentionally correct the understeer. If they make cars more neutral, average driver will do the same while sliding with both wheels or oversteering and make his situation even worst.
So, to conclude, I don't think they make such testing to be able to anounce best settings for spirited drivers or even to announce what is best tyre for aplication because they don't give a dam for such things.
Course, all above is just my thinking and not relevant and confirmed data.
 
I don't think they do this for UK cars, the snow we get is so minimal tho the way people go on you'd think it was 10 feet deep. Mine is a focus zetec 1.6 tdci.
 
I think it's pretty general to dial in some understeer in all cars. It's inherently safer than oversteer and is generally considered to be easier to control. Even my own car, which is a RWD 528i behaves as a slight understeerer if you push ridiculously hard. It is, however, much more neutral than most FWD cars.

With PAS being standard on all cars now understeer is pretty easy to disguise from the driver.
 
Focus' are a neutral handling car.
It takes quite alot to provoke understeer/oversteer in a Focus Zetec.
The difference between both cars is the Focus has sports suspension so being stiffer may make it worse in the snow.
 
turbonutter69 said:
Focus' are a neutral handling car.
It takes quite alot to provoke understeer/oversteer in a Focus Zetec.
The difference between both cars is the Focus has sports suspension so being stiffer may make it worse in the snow.
Click to expand...

They are indeed very neutral. Possibly still amongst the very best of mid size FWD hatches. The original 98 Focus changed the way we all felt about FWD handling.

Harder suspension and damping never helps grip in poor conditions.
 
Yes Focus can be the exception that prove the rool. Certainly, hard suspension does not help on snow, but for initial movement from standing still shouldn't make any difference. Or am i wrong here?
 
You say the Focus is the best in its class but having a 1.6 lx 2002 model, a 2008 Focus ST-3 and now a 1.6 2009 zetec tdci I have to say that really the only thing that it beats others with is the handling, although with winter tyres on it handles pretty awful tbh. Very woolly steering. After driving so many cars I still have to say the Kia ceed is a very good contender, it's smoother, quieter and punchier than the focus the handling isn't quite as good but that's it.
 
Mines only a 1.6 petrol so it's not the fastest thing in the world but there isn't much on the road for the same price that will keep up with it in the twisties.
Also with it being only a 100 bhp I can keep the loud pedal planted round most corner where as a more powerful car would want to understeer if pushed hard enough.
Although it's a good ride I do find it a bit stiff for the tracks we have round here.

(they aren't roads anymore due to all the potholes)
 
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