Speed cameras ....

[obi_waynne]

Are they a necessary evil? Should they be banned? Should points and fines be different when issued from a camera rather than the Police on the streets.

Make a case either for or against them or propose guidelines on their citing in this thread.

Heres my take - they do help reduce accidents. They keep drivers speeds down. They are also very distracting and cause people to over compensate and brake to below the speed limit. We should be told the threshold for a fine along the lines of +3mph+10% so we can feel confident that we can pass one in a 30 zone at 33 mph without it going off. Points from a camera should be lower and the fine higher - 2 points and £80 fine for example. If you speedo is broken or poorly calibrated and under reading you can get a ban passing as little as 3 junctions on the M25!

They should be cited on proven accident blackspots and not hidden around bends. Traffic light jumpers should all be prosecuted without exception so i approve of putting cameras on traffic lights - jumping lights is a big danger to other motorists. :x

Let the arguements ensue.....

 

[Rudders666]

Here & There

I agree with the lights on camera's completely Waynne! it just f*cks me off when people jump lights! Nearlyhad a few in the past, i generally try to scare 'em by driving straight at them.

It's proven that speed camera's definitely do not decrease road deaths as Jeremy Clarkson rightly proved on Top Gear a while back. He read out a list of areas and the amount of speed cameras put up, and yet with increases in deaths on every single area. I imagine they will be caused by too many people staring at their speedometer's rather than the road and what's going on around them. It's stupid!

Therefore i am fully against speed cameras. It's not as if they make any difference as people slow through them and then boot it out the other side and drive even faster because they've been slowed down by a speed camera. :twisted: 8)

 

[aswearing]

cameras at the lights are a good idea as jumping lights is obviously dangerous as stated before, but cheekily hiding speed cameras within red light cams is naughty.

spped cameras in general are okay, the method works and those endangering others are proscecuted for it, people over compensating also causes dangerous driving to those behind.

to be honest the only people that get flashed by a truvelo or gatso must not have been paying attention to see a yellow box and grey pole by the side of the road, let alone tell-tale marks on the roadway.

specs i see as a revenue for the government as many other factors must be taken into consideration like what waynne mentioned.

i am neither for or against speed cameras, they help reduce speeding, they also make fines appear through your post as well as 3 points on your liscence, they worry road drivers into halving the speed limit, they are everywhere in wales, i do believe that there is too much roadside furniture at the minute and new initiatives should be taken that rehabilitates rather than penilises.

thankyou and goodnight (although its daytime)

 

[k3ogh]

my view on cameras is like aswearing said its revenue for the goverment, like they dont get enough revenue from fuel etc!!!! there is a lot of cameras round tameside gtr manchester but on closer inspection they all look burnt out and dead. has any one seen that bloke on t.v who has a wee gang that goes round the country burning them out lol

 

[Prince]

I don't know any road user that likes speed cameras! And why should they? All they are is easy money for the government! Let's be honest, we're speeding, we see the camera, so we slow down, we go past the camera, so we speed back up! There is still no proof that they actually work. Whilst in certain areas accidents have decreased, other areas have seen an increase in accidents. When you approach one, you have to make damn sure your not speeding, which means slowing down to about 25 mph (in case your speedo is wrong), and keeping 1 eye on the speedo!

Personally I hate them, and I'll buy anyone a beer who vandelises them!

 

[k3ogh]

yea i feel the same burn them all out !!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Prince]

I've got a 'meet' idea! We all meet up at the most southern point of the country, at like 1am, then travel round the country buring down every single speed camera, until we reach the most northern point. A list of things we'll need:
- matches
- petrol
- masks (so we can hide our identities!)
- some kind of police radar detection system
- weapons (just in case we get seen by pro-speed camera groups...they'll need a good beating!! lol)

p.s. everybody be careful not to get caught speeding!

 

[obi_waynne]

I bet the cameras will be protected by other cameras: idea where roundup so much by the fact that traffic slow up to well below the specified road speed whenever they pass a speed camera.

 

[Pixel]

they are everywhere in wales

"Everywhere" would be an understatement. A simple journey from my home to University which is about 5 miles takes me through 5 (FIVE) speed camera's.

 

[Pixel]

I've got a 'meet' idea! We all meet up at the most southern point of the country, at like 1am, then travel round the country buring down every single speed camera, until we reach the most northern point. A list of things we'll need:
- matches
- petrol
- masks (so we can hide our identities!)
- some kind of police radar detection system
- weapons (just in case we get seen by pro-speed camera groups...they'll need a good beating!! lol)

p.s. everybody be careful not to get caught speeding!

I'm in.

Give me a date, time & location!

 

[pgarner]

I bet the cameras will be protected by other cameras: idea where roundup so much by the fact that traffic slow up to well below the specified road speed whenever they pass a speed camera.

yeah the most vandalized ones have cctv built close by to watch

have you seen the new ones from holland big huge green things that can work at night, digital pics sent straight away, have what looks like 2 cctv cameras built in and an alarm which goes off in the police station

cost is somewhere around £40k each so if our govt decides to buy them then expect to get caught out a lot more to pay for them

 

[HDi fun]

This a very emotive subject and also maybe the single most debated subject affecting the British motorist.

I'm not sure that ever decreasing speed limits and ever more rigorous enforcement really addresses the issue of road safety.

It's easy for Government to issue statistics and the results of studies undertaken to try and prove the point. In reality, stats are largely worthless. Statistics is a mechanism by which you can really represent anything in any way you like without telling lies. I'd quite like to see the gathered raw data from which these stats are compiled. I'd also like to see the criteria applied when data gathering was implemented.

The daftest bunch of pro-slow campaigners is the Slower Speeds Initiative. Refer to http://www.slower-speeds.org.uk/

They seem to think that a 1mph reduction in average speed will reduce accidents. What they fail to see is that if you and I slow from whatever speed we're doing in town (30 to 29, 20 to 19, or 33 to 32 or 60 to 59) will result in a mean decrease of 1mph.

This will make no difference at all. However, if the sane amongst us carry on at our usual speeds and we remove the 60mph-through-a-built-up-area-idiot then the same mean 1mph decrease will still stand. And we can all carry on at 30,20,33 or whatever. Removal of the 60mph berk will radically reduce the risk of accidents.

This is why I hate stats and their application in situations such as these.

I do not think that rigorous enforcement of out of town limits will make any difference at all to safety. If anyone had suggested 25 years ago that we issue all traffic officers with canvas chairs, blinkers and stopwatches that person would have been deemed of unsound mind. But that's what we've done. We've replaced traffic officers with dumb cameras.

I'll avoid the revenue and cost thing as that's a different argument.

There is no legislation that requires speed cameras to be sited in a suitable location. There are simply guidelines. Sadly, these guidelines are set by people who refer to statistics (NOT to raw data).

For example, it is considered reasonable to place a fixed speed camera within 0.6 miles of a known accident blackspot. Stupidly, the guidelines don't stipulate that the camera must be located on the same road as the blackspot. Therefore, you can have a village with a 30mph limit and then someone gets hurt by a car travelling above 30mph.
400 metres to the south of the village is a safe three lane each way bypass with a 70mph limit upon which there have been no fatalities. According to the guidlines it's acceptable to install and operate a speed enforcement device along that carriageway. Same goes for overpasses, underpasses. Maybe tunnels, too!

If nothing else, speed measuring devices should be marked clearly in advance, thus allowing drivers to slow down. Surely the best result of a two hour stint in a safety camera van would result in no tickets being issued. That way they've achieved their goal. Because, as we all know, it has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH REVENUE. Has it?

Any thoughts

Regards,

Paul.

 

[HDi fun]

I've also sent this to slower speeds (shame their grammar is so weak, too). Bet you they won't respond.

 

[Izo Azlion]

HDi for transport minister, I say. Hear hear.

Well said mate. Its just beer money.

 

[pgarner]

If nothing else, speed measuring devices should be marked clearly in advance, thus allowing drivers to slow down. Surely the best result of a two hour stint in a safety camera van would result in no tickets being issued. That way they've achieved their goal. Because, as we all know, it has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH REVENUE. Has it?

Any thoughts

Regards,

Paul.

but if they dont catch anyone then how do we pay for all these nice yellow cameras that are everywhere

 

[pgarner]

slower speeds will reduce fuel consumption and CO2 emissions

can i ask how this works i live in the country and driving through a 30mph town doing 30mph i achieve only 31 -33 mpg (from a 1.8t producing 200bhp) yet out on the open road i regularly drive at around 70mph and return 37-42mpg
explain

lets see if i can get an answer

 

[obi_waynne]

I'll second HDI for transport minister.

I've never really got the speed cameras as a safety thing. I can't help but think that most people are missing the point of the accidnet statistics. The fact is that there are so many accidents on a certain road is because there are so many cars on the road. Simple law of averages. If you compared the number of cars and accidents today and obtained a ratio then compared this with to say at 20 years ago I'm sure that the accident rate would be substantially reduced. Our cars today are safer both for the occupants and for pedestrians and due to congestion road speeds are reduced inner urban areas and due to congestion.

So to make safer roads, we need to reduce the number of cars using them and not claim that accidents are due to speed.

 

[kai_mitsurugi]

"Everywhere" would be an understatement. A simple journey from my home to University which is about 5 miles takes me through 5 (FIVE) speed camera's.

Yep same here Pixel. I pass 5 speed cameras on my way home from uni too let alone spots where camera vans are regularly sited. A good idea would be to put a speed limit sign on the camera itself or maybe just before. Quite a few cameras (including where the vans are put) in the Swansea area are in areas where the speed limit is not made clear. As Pixel may know they do this on the Valeo road in Gorseinon, my home town

 

[obi_waynne]

Its not a bad idea to have the speed limit on the camera itself. I have nearly been caught out on holiday in unfamiliar areas where the speed limit signs left a lot to be desired.

 

[HDi fun]

I agree, what's the point of enforcing a limit that's ambiguous. If it's that unimportant then raise the limit and stop the needless application of cameras.

 

[pgarner]

1 example ( and possibly the only one ) where a speed camera worked, in this case the vans, was on the M9 the, now, ex chief police driving examiner for scotland was caught doing 118mph
he pleaded exceptional circumstances as he was trying out a new route for training. now he never put any paperwork in as he was on way to pick up a mate
result banned judge said there was no way he could be let off for being near twice the limit only downside is that he is now living off his £1800 a month pension and only banned for , i think , 3 months still nice to see the police cant get away with it for a change

 

[Prince]

Now how will he go and catch all those rapists and murderers? Oh wait...the police don't bother with real crimes! The only crime a rapist or murderer will get punished for is speeding!!!

 

[pgarner]

ohh no this was just a copper who examined the police to make sure they could drive cars can expect then all to sit behind desks all day

best thing was he claimed he needed to keep his driving license so he could find another job

 

[old-git]

Now how will he go and catch all those rapists and murderers? Oh wait...the police don't bother with real crimes! The only crime a rapist or murderer will get punished for is speeding!!!

Murder in UK March 2006 - March 2007 - 755 (to the best of my knowledge)

Road deaths for same period - approx 3600

Time spent reducing deaths on roads is much more productive in preserving life.

I certainly wouldn't want my daughter killed by a speeding idiot because the police decided that catching one gang member who killed another (IMHO let them get on with it) was better than trying to keep some sort of control on our roads. It is bad enough now in some places (Basildon), but can you imagine the chaos that would ensue if there was no chance of getting caught? It would be like living in a war zone (some would say like Basildon!)

Time to duck methinks

 

[fingers]

but can you imagine the chaos that would ensue if there was no chance of getting caught? It would be like living in a war zone (some would say like Basildon!)

Time to duck methinks

Basildon would be a bit like Braintree then. The carpark to freeport shopping village is a lovley place to be in the evening.

I see speed cameras as a good thing because it saves me paying extra TAX to employ extra traffic cops to catch speeders. I also see them as a way of weening stupid twat drivers off the road. They are always in the same place, they are always sign posted to warn you, and if that doesn't make things easier for you they are painted bright yellow so you cant miss them! If you still get caught then I'm sorry but your a bit stupid and so un-observant or blind that you probably shouldn't be driving anyway.

I have lost 2 very good friends, seen one hospitalised and my sister lost a boyfriend because of idiots who were going to fast and/or were too un-observant to see them.

I find the only people who winge and moan about GATSO's are the spanners who get caught by them. Slow down, and there's no problem is there? Beleive it or not, speed limits are ther for a reason and not just to irritate people or be broken. Thats what the track or 1/4mile is for.

Rant over.

 

[Prince]

You definitely give a young driver something to think about.

 

[old-git]

Good one fingers, couldn't have said it better myself.

The unsolvable problem, as I see it, is that when you are young and your balls have just dropped, you think you are brilliant, can do no wrong and know everything. Anyone over 25 is past it and should be in a home! I know, I can remember being like that. I used to race on the highway for money back in the 70s. You feel in perfect control of your vehicle, and don't give a thought to other road users or pedestrians. It's only when you get older, have kids, see friends killed, that you realise how bloody stupid you were!

Young people will always want to speed and there is nothing, short of possibly castration, that the authorities can do about it other than try to keep the lid on it.

Restricting young drivers to small engines won't work because they can still be driven at speed, just takes longer to get there. There is even the argument that driving a low powered car flat out is more dangerous than a powerful one being driven at half chat.

The only way I can see of preventing 17 - 19 year olds killing themselves and others is to raise the driving age to 20 (ignoring the fact that some will still drive).

 

[fingers]

The only way I can see of preventing 17 - 19 year olds killing themselves and others is to raise the driving age to 20 (ignoring the fact that some will still drive).

I totally agree. I drove like a tit untill I nearly killed myself in my Capri when I was 21. I also think driving licences should be renewed. It all very well having laws stating a car should be checked every year to ensure its roadworthy, but what about the driver? I know for sure I wouldn't pass my driving test again without refresher lessons first.

 

[Prince]

I also think driving licences should be renewed. It all very well having laws stating a car should be checked every year to ensure its roadworthy, but what about the driver? I know for sure I wouldn't pass my driving test again without refresher lessons first.

I agree partially with that...you should have to re-take your test when you get to a certain age...but re-taking your test every few years would not only cost a lot, but it would p*** everybody off! We already have to pay enough money for driving as it is...why should we pay for refresher lessons and another test (or tests)! I'll admit, I wouldn't pass my test if I was forced to re-take it tomorrow...but I've already done the hard part!

 

[fingers]

why should we pay for refresher lessons and another test (or tests)!

The next time you are at a round about, watch all the people whe havn't a clue what lane to be in or when to indicate and I think you will find there is no specific age group. Why should old people be targeted for re-tests/refresher courses when you agree yourself that you wouldn't pass a tst again 1st time? Surly if you feel your driving skils have lapsed below the standard you need to gain a licence then you need a refresher?

All it would need is you take apracticle test, if you fail, brush up on what you failed on and re-test. This would dramatically reduce the amount of un-capeable/high risk drivers on the road and should in theory reduce insurance premiums.

 

[Prince]

My driving skills haven't lapsed...they've got significantly better! I would fail because I generally hold the wheel with one hand (unless I'm driving at high speeds). I don't have to talk to myself, I don't have to check my mirrors everytime I increase my speed by 2mph and I look at junctions so much quicker than any learner does. I'm sure you agree that you learn to drive after you pass your test.

To justify my other point...about older drivers. I'm talking about 60+ drivers. An 18 year old driving at 30mph is a lot safer than a 65 year old driving at 30mph because if god forbid somebody steps in the way...the 18 year old's reaction speed (on average) will be quicker. How often do you complain about the driver in front...only to realise it's someone who's over 60? I don't mean any offense by any comments, we're all free to express our opinions. But when I watch my grandad drive...I know he shouldn't be!

Maybe random testing would be a good idea?

 

[fingers]

My driving skills haven't lapsed...they've got significantly better! I would fail because I generally hold the wheel with one hand (unless I'm driving at high speeds). I don't have to talk to myself, I don't have to check my mirrors everytime I increase my speed by 2mph and I look at junctions so much quicker than any learner does.

This goes with what Old Git said about people thinking they are brilliant and invincible. Being confident enough to hold the wheel with one hand doesn't make you a better driver, nor does not taking as much time to approach and look at a junction, or not checking your mirrors before conciously altering your speed, regardless of how much your doing it by. (if you like I can give a very long explanation for this but cant be bothered right now) When you have been doing something for a while, the experience will give you confidence but not necessarily make you better, and confidence will make you careless. If driving skills got better the longer you or anyone had been doing it, then surley old people would be the best drivers in the world and would never need a retest. Familiarity breeds contempt!

I'm sure you agree that you learn to drive after you pass your test.

I believe you learn how to drive after you learn how dangerous a car can be and how valuable life is. Most people don't consider these things untill they either hit their mid 20's and have somehow been involved in an accident and/or have Kids. Untill either of those points you think your invincible and "it won't happen to me", everyone does. It has to happen to someone and someoneelse usually causes it (what ever 'it' is).

Botom line is, everyone will pick up bad habits, forget things and probably become over confident, regardless of their age. We are all only human.

 

[Prince]

I think we could probably argue this one all night. I think our age and experience makes the difference in opinions.

 

[fingers]

I believe you could be right.

 

[obi_waynne]

We have an agreement. The old and the young unite TorqueCars close the generation gap......

Now whos going to be first to say "oi leave my age out of this." I'm betting fingers....

 

[fingers]

I may be rapidly approaching 30 but I'll never grow up. My toys just keep getting more expensive.

 

[Prince]

I'm approaching 20! I can't afford the toys I want!

 

[pgarner]

wait till your married at got your own house
then can you not only not afford the toys you just dont bother looking

 

[HDi fun]

Blimey, I'm approaching forty in the next year or two. I feel sooooo old. I think my reactions are still OK, although possibly not quite up the the immediacy they were when I was 19. Having said that, anticipation grows with years of experience and I can only hope that it helps mitigate against slower reactions. Otherwise I'm doomed.

:-(

 

[obi_waynne]

I think experience counts over fast reactions. You get to see a problem before it happens in theory. I'm not quite there yet, how are you planning to have your mid life crisis?