How would you define a MUSCLE CAR?

obi_waynne

obi_waynne

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There must be a simple set of characteristics which define a Muscle Car. The difficulty is in differentiating them from Super Cars?

Are musclecars always NASP, AMERICAN? I think not but what is it that makes a car a muscle car and not a supercar? Are all supercars 2 seaters? Again no so how would you define a supercar? What is the Nissan Skyline or the GTR?
 
i would define a muscle car as 1 that is a simple setup

1. big engine up front min 400bhp
2. rear wheel drive
3. no traction control , abs anything else
 
waynne said:
There must be a simple set of characteristics which define a Muscle Car. The difficulty is in differentiating them from Super Cars?
Click to expand...

Wiki has a pretty good definition:

A muscle car is an automobile with a high horse power engine, modest weight, capable of producing high levels of acceleration.[1] The term principally refers to American, Australian and South African models and generally describes a 2-door rear wheel drive mid-size car with a large, powerful V8 engine and special trim, intended for maximum torque on the street or in drag racing competition. It is distinguished from sports cars, which were customarily considered smaller, two-seat cars, or GTs, two-seat or 2+2 cars intended for high-speed touring and possibly road racing. High-performance full-size or compact cars are arguably excluded from this category, as are the breed of compact sports coupes inspired by the Ford Mustang. Other factors used in defining classic muscle cars are their age and country of origin. A classic muscle car is usually made in the U.S. or Australia between 1964 and 1975. The term "muscle car" did not enter common usage until after production of the cars had essentially ended. It is generally accepted that popular, widespread usage of the term took hold by the early to mid-1980s.
 
is it just me or does american muscle cars have huge engines and not much power. ok they have more power than my polo but for example a BMW M3CSL has a 3.2l engine and chucks out roughly 350bhp (dont quote me tho) ,but certainly more than 100bhp per litre without the use of forced induction. (same story with some ferraris and im sure many more).

okay they have torque, but where is all the power going? or do they take the weight of the average american into account and give you a relative power figure :lol:
 
yeah but muscle cars mainly run along the lines of a simple engine in most cases a hemi. this only gives a 2 valves per cylinder so less control of air fuel mix. And as most were built like og mentioned in the 60s and 70s then the technology wouldnt have existed such as vvt, sophisticated injection or even a ecu to adjust everything for best power / economy.

remember a 1930's rolls royce was 5 ltr and only produced around 50bhp. run forward 40 years and your looking 5ltrs kicking out 300ish.
 
ah, i see. bout what about the dodge viper? thats a relatively newish car with a 8litre engine, power figures i think are around the 400bhp mark.

can anyone tell i dont like american engineering?
 
The flat plane crank American V8's were never intended to rev hard. Often peak power was delivered as lo as 4000rpm. An M3 needs over 8000rpm to show peak power.

They're low stressed lazy engines fed by 2 or 4 carburettors and dish out peak torque not much over idle speed.

Another stipulation is that it MUST HAVE AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION of the slushy 3 speed variety.
 
A proper muscle car is big, comfortable and had a huge engine in it (usually with rubbish brakes and suspension).

pgarner said:
yeah but muscle cars mainly run along the lines of a simple engine in most cases a hemi.
Click to expand...

Sorry but wrong. no points for you.;) The legendary HEMI (short for hemispherical combustion chamber) was a Chrylser motor and a proper 426cubic inch HEMI is a rare and sought after thing. When first put into a road car in '66 (could be wrong on the year) the figures published by chrysler were 475bhp. This though already high was a deliberate false publication for legel reasons (not sure what they were). the true power output for one of these was closer to 515bhp. far more than anything else available at the time and more than most things now. If anyones interested I'll see what info I can find.
 
'There's no substitute for cubic inches' was the original American turn of phrase. As to who coined it, I have no idea. And in North America, with its penny gallons of gas, it's the right way to think.

It was common practice to over-fuel the engine all across the rev range using good 'ole quad port Holly carbs just to keep temperatures down.

I agree that rubbish brakes and questionable handling do add to the appeal. Not sure I fancy the idea on Britain's crowded roads of today but maybe it would add to the entertainment value.

Leaving a corner at 35mph and hitting 120mph before the next should certainly liven up an overcast Sunday afternoon.

On 5 inch wide Crossply tyres (tires, perhaps) and drum brakes all round.

Anyone for life insurance?
 
fingers said:
A proper muscle car is big, comfortable and had a huge engine in it (usually with rubbish brakes and suspension).



Sorry but wrong. no points for you.;) The legendary HEMI (short for hemispherical combustion chamber) was a Chrylser motor and a proper 426cubic inch HEMI is a rare and sought after thing. When first put into a road car in '66 (could be wrong on the year) the figures published by chrysler were 475bhp. This though already high was a deliberate false publication for legel reasons (not sure what they were). the true power output for one of these was closer to 515bhp. far more than anything else available at the time and more than most things now. If anyones interested I'll see what info I can find.
Click to expand...

:sad:
ahh sorry i thought the chrylser engine started the whole thing off. them more caught on normally running a slighty smaller size

Aye if you can dig some more up on it id be interested
 
Hemi combustion chambers were used in the Escort MkIII. And it was renowned for it's NVH problems. Perhaps if it had eight cylinders and a seven litre stroked volume then NVH would have nbeen negligible at 2000rpm.
 
As far as I know, Chrysler Corp have right to the design of the HEMI engine and only allow certain other makes to use the design/concept (Daimler & Aston Martin I think) I was going write what I had heard and read about the Chrysler HEMI engine but this is easier and probably more accruate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_Hemi_engine

Theres a bit about the Ford CVH unit too. T'was similar but not the same. Ford got away with this one by making it a overhead cam instead of a pushrod engine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_CVH_engine
 
I think that's unlikely. It's virtually impossible to patent and copyright a concept, idea, word, or part thereof. You can trademake certain things, for example, HEMI in Chysler's case, which Chrysler may have done. But it's only a truncation of the word hemispherical.

It would be like Microsoft trying to acquire exclusive rights to use the word Windows (with a capital 'W').

CVH is an acronym for 'compact valve hemispherical'. This describes the combustion chamber design.
 
An interesting read Fingers. (I don't trust wiki that much, as a collaberative effort it gives a good overview, but there are some glaring inaccuracies at times!)
 
Wiki is a good read but as Waynne says, it's only a content delivery system. It's up to you to decide what you think is sacred, sacrosanct and silly.
 
Hemispherical combustion chambers, from what i've been told, is the ideal shape for a combustion chamber. Better than the dishes in most engines, but it makes the head large and heavy and, seeing as the diameter of the spere has to be the same as the diameter of the cylinder, you'd need big cylinders.

And, although I also don't like american engineering, I will say that american engines are reliable. Although you loose out on power and economy, most people in Europe wouldn't buy a car over 100,000 miles because the engine will be worn. Alot of american cars will run well into the 500,000 miles mark without any major issues. The engines are so understressed that they will run forever. I suppose thats their mentality.

Ohh, and for me, muscle cars have shoddy handling with lots of body roll, a V8+ engine, big fat tyres and be quick in a straight line, using power instead of finesse.

Dave
 
So a discussion arose on FalkenTires Instagram page about Muscle cars. Someone saying the GTR is better which kicked off the American readers big time. From what I remember the press termed the Skyline GTR as the Japanese muscle car so were they right or does a muscle car need to be V8 and American only
 
HDi fun said:
The flat plane crank American V8's were never intended to rev hard. Often peak power was delivered as lo as 4000rpm. An M3 needs over 8000rpm to show peak power
Click to expand...

I am fairly sure that they were mostly "cross plane" not "flat plane " cranks ;)
 
Last edited:
The term muscle car is one that's probably at least 50 years old
So I would go back in time for the original , and therefore the correct definition.

So imho.......
A big block American V8 on a simple chassis designed for huge torque at low revs with little or no attention paid to to much else including going round bends.
Auto transmission because it worked and besides with that torque you don't need a manual box , especially for going from a to b in a straight line.

So using the above a Jensen interceptor isn't a true muscle car as it was a hatchback , had an awd drive option, central locking and dual circuit brakes and a really nice interior .(discuss ?)

.
 
WOW , LOL . I grew up during the muscle car era in Michigan , USA . I was too young (17)to own a real muscle car but my uncles all did . To me it was a lot more than just the cars , it was a lifestyle and a great time be alive. We would "cruise the inns " ( drive Inns ) looking for races and young ladies to ride with us . Friends would meet up and hang out . If you have never driven or ridden in a Big Block car from a dead stop it is impossible to explain the feeling and you missed out. I was stationed in Rhode Island during the Vietnam war and became friends with a local auto shop owner whom I helped work on his car , a Plymouth Valiant with a 426 Hemi that he raced . After a long week of hard work he took me for a ride in the car , unbelievable !!!! It literally put me back in the seat and held me there . I was dumbfounded at the power it put out and no it would not be something I would drive down a curvy road under power. All my life I liked high performance cars and racing, now at 64 years old I still enjoy hot rodding my car. This is a video of my VW beetle ( the red one ) that I drag raced , the engine is now in my street car .
Mike McCarthy
 
Thanks, the exact same engine was installed into my 66 bug without any change other than lowering my boost. It does not handle great on curves but is a blast to cruise around in. Maybe it can be called a mini muscle car , 366 rwhp, does not handle worth a crap , has a 4 barrel Holley , and an American built it. LOL
 
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