Alfa Romeo - Remap Fiasco Advice Needed

[mattkidd]

Hi There,

I am in need of some advice from someone who knows what they're talking about.

I am the owner of an Alfa Romeo MiTo 1.4 (T-Jet Engine) 155BHP - 2010 - (56000 miles). Whilst I know this is not the quickest car around I have set myself on tuning and modifying the car. To date I have: new suspension, uprated brakes, LSD, full stainless steel exhaust with sports CAT etc.... The engine is all stock with the only exception being a K&N Air Filter.

My aspirations are to hit 180BHP without making any engine modifications (which is apparently possible and has been achieved by owners of the same car). If I want anything further the turbo needs to be swapped out and then we'd be looking at 230+.

Now the issue I am having concerns remappers and dynos...... In short transparency, honesty and integrity. In truth, I am very confused....

The story in-short:

1.
In Feb 2015 I visited company (X) for a remap and dyno run of my car, an independent remap garage with a rolling road. The deal was £260 for a remap and before and after dyno run; pretty good I thought.

Firstly the car was dynoned to see how the stock map was performing. Surprinslgy it showed 163BHP at peak (Above the manufacturers spec) at this point the only modification on the car was the K&N Air filter (the exhaust was stock).

A remap was then applied to the car which increased boost, RPM limiter etc. It was held back a little due to the stock CAT getting too hot. This was then also dynoed on the rolling road, producing a healthy 176BHP, a nice increase to get started on which was noticeably better when driving.

[img]http://thumbsnap.com/t/yP1yHDBS.jpg[/img]|http://thumbsnap.com/yP1yHDBS
[img]http://thumbsnap.com/t/d3xHTlpN.jpg[/img]|http://thumbsnap.com/d3xHTlpN

2.
In June 2015 I visited a leading garage for Alfa Romeo's with the concern of a misfire, Company Y. The misfire couldn't be found but I was recommended to restore the car back to stock map to see if this would solve the issue.

After some persuasion company Y applied their own remap to the car to replace the existing map by company X.

Company Y has a negative perception of Company X and accuses them of potential foul play with artificially tampering rolling road results. Company Y also has a negative perception on rolling roads as a whole, considering them inaccurate and dependent on many variables.

The map applied by Company Y feels 'Ok' not majorly noticeable improvements over the map by Company X. It was supposedly more aggressive as I had recently removed the stock exhaust and replaced it.

3.

Once the new remap was applied by Company Y, I decided I would run the car on the same rolling road company X used originally to compare the results. To my surprise the new map only achieved 153BHP, which is less than the factory spec and lesser than my first original run on the same rolling road months before.

Back to ask company Y to fix this.

[img]http://thumbsnap.com/t/4xtyj7YB.jpg[/img]|http://thumbsnap.com/4xtyj7YB


4.
Company Y once again believes some foul play may be taking place by company X and the rolling road, those results do not look accurate. Instead company Y organises some time at a Hub Dyno, which would be more accurate.

Today I visited the HubDyno with the car and was immediately told the figures would be lower as it's a hub dyno, I should expect 120HP. The whole flywheel/wheel difference was explained to me here. Roughly 20% lost due to transmission etc etc...

Three maps were run on the hub dyno. Firstly the OEM, secondly company X's and finally company Y's. There's an evident gap between the maps so improvements have been made with company Y's map.

Yet the figures do not seem to match or make sense. It would suggest that even with 20% loss taken into account my horsepower isn't exceeding the manfuactuer spec by much if any.

So what's the problem? I'm confused.

- I don't know what my car is actually achieving as the rolling road is in BHP (Which most go by) the hub dyno is in wheel power, so what is my car actually achieving according to these results?

- Who to trust (Is this a case of competitiveness and dishonesty)

- Is something wrong with the car (mechanically speaking, is this being overlooked)

- Am I expecting too much and realistically is everyone being mislead with the cars potential?

Would greatly appreciate some advice and educating where necessary!

Cheers!
Matt

[img]http://thumbsnap.com/t/uTAhP5nw.jpg[/img]|http://thumbsnap.com/uTAhP5nw

[footnote]Edited by mattkidd on Tuesday 11th August 00:22[/footnote]

 

[mattkidd]

 

[obi_waynne]

Rolling roads are inaccurate sadly. You can only really compare results on the same Dyno with different mods, each Dyno is set up differently.

How the car feels and how it drives is the most important thing.

When remapping I would recommend going to a specialist in your car model, each type of car has quirks and a one company that maps all cars is unlikely to have every detail and quirk noted for every engine.

Some Dynos have been setup to give an at the flywheel power figure, air temps and fuel type can also have a big effect on the results.

I would say ignore the dyno figures, only compare runs on the same dyno if you must compare. How does the car drive, is it quicker, does it pull well across the rev range, is it noticeably better than stock?

 

[TCJBOLDIE]

^^^^^^ Good info Obi
Mat kid take it from one who has been there and done that. You firstly need to find a reliable,honest and skilled tuner and put your trust in him and inform him of exactly what you want to achieve with your car and then take it back to him each time you need an upgrade/more power so you will be comparing apples with apples The same make of dyno in different shops with different operators will give slightly different results.

You should not worry about FW HP but HP at the tyres as all the transmission losses are accounted for.

The way the dyno is operated also has a bearing on the final figure as well Tyre pressure on the driven wheels should be 40 psi
it has to be strapped down correctly so the wheels are kept in proper contact with the rollers and the air temp sensor must be in place next to the filter inlet as well as the operator having it in the same mode every time.

The ambient air temps also affect the power especially with turbos as they love low temps so a hot summer day and a cold winter day on the dyno will give a much different power figure.

My tuner has a DYNO DYNACICS 4WD dyno and uses SHOOTOUT mode and the car in 4th gear.

 

[herb]

If you have an android phone?

I'd personally download the torque app paid version is less than £5 get a Bluetooth obd reader of eBay yet again around the £5 mark and test your hp and torque on that it's not 100% correct but with the few vehicles I've tested it's about 90% accurate

 

[HDi fun]

Torque App is not remotely reliable in terms of absolute numbers. What is does do is illustrate how many factors affect the total power delivery. I use it periodically just to see what's going on with temps, manifold absolute pressure etc.

 

[Yugguy]

Howdo.

I'd be looking to upgrade the intercooler and exhaust first before a remap - you might find you get near 180bhp just with those.

This is just an example from Forge:

http://www.forgemotorsport.co.uk/Fr..._Mito__Tjet_Mjet_Multiair--product--1000.html

The trouble with remapping from standard is you're basically pushing more air through the same restrictions, which raises the intake heat, sometimes to the point of danger to the engine.