Torque Cars

206 1.6 at 200hp?

Discussion in '205/206/207/208 forums' started by salgado18, 25 November 2008.

  1. salgado18

    salgado18 Full member

    Messages:
    11
    From:
    Belo Horizonte, Brazil
    Car:
    Beetle 68 1.3 :P
    Hi all, I'm new to the forum here (joined for some time, but first time posting), and there's a question that's hammering my head for weeks now.

    What would it take to get a 1.6L 16V TU5JP4 Peugeot 206 (originaly 108hp) up to 200hp?

    Some info: engine-swapping to the GTi's is unlikely, I'm in Brazil and that engine does not exist here;
    I don't know if taking the 307's 2 litre engine is viable/easy, although I really want a screamer engine, so it would go to 250hp anyway, and back to square one;
    No turbo/supercharger/nitro, If I considered them it would be easy enough not to ask;
    I don't care much for low-end torque, as long as it can be driven above 1500-2000 rpm.

    The reason I ask is because everywhere I look, nobody is willing to push a stock normal engine past 100hp/litre, so there's very little info on the subject.

    There's one preparation I found on a local auto website, in which a 2.0 8V VW engine reaches 230hp with extensive mods, and the owner uses it daily. It has such things as 14.8:1 compression (ethanol) and 318 degrees camshaft.

    I also did a simulation on Dyno2003, if anyone's interested.

    So, any thoughts? Thanks in advance!
     
  2. thexav

    thexav Pro Tuner Staff Member

    Messages:
    2,044
    Car:
    2002 Clio 172
    Nice to meet you and Im glad youve posted.

    You normally say the max is 100bhp for each litre of engine. So the maximum on a 1.6 is 160bhp. When you factor in other losses it usually tops out at 150.

    The only way to do this is to add a turbo or supercharger. You have to increase the engines capacity. A rebore might also work if you took it to 2.0 but this seems a bit big.
     
  3. billyo

    billyo Track Warrior

    Messages:
    541
    I suppose if you raise the redline limit youll get more power. It would need balancing and lot of strengthening. Why dont you want a turbo?
     
  4. salgado18

    salgado18 Full member

    Messages:
    11
    From:
    Belo Horizonte, Brazil
    Car:
    Beetle 68 1.3 :P
    That is such a controversial question, it would fit an entire thread... Simple answer, I like NA engines far better most of the time. Take only the sound of F430, Zonda, Gallardo, Murchiellago, Porsche GT, all 600-1300cc bikes (all NA) and compare to Merc SLR, 911T, Veyron, Koenig CCX... compare A3 Turbo to Civic Si/Type-R. Guess it's just personal preference...

    I guess I'd rather put a turbocharged 1300 bike engine on an elise than turbocharging the original engine, just for the revs...


    But the Peugeot is possible, drag racing engines sometimes reach 500hp/litre, and up to a lot without turbos, I think getting 125hp/litre for road use is fairly achievable, expensive and technical, but achievable.
     
  5. obi_waynne

    obi_waynne Administrator Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    41,284
    From:
    Deal, Kent UK
    Car:
    A3 1.4 TFSI 150 COD
    To get something like that you will need to rebuild the engine (obviously).

    Focus on gas flowing the head and getting bigger valves. You will need to think very carefully about the cam profile you decide on as well. You will also need to increase the compression of the engine. Perhaps a rebore will give you a bit more cc to play with, every little helps.

    You will also need to run something other than pump fuel. Ethanol injection might be a good solution (if you pardon the pun.)

    If the engine is fully balanced and blueprinted you can raise the redline and would need to get this to around 10,000 rpm which is no mean feat.

    You need to remember that the drag racers engines are designed for race fuels and extensively strenghtened.

    I still think you will struggle to get the power figure you are after but wish you all the best in this project and I will add that the cost will almost certainly be VERY VERY steep.

    Post up your simulation results and well take a look at them.
     
  6. salgado18

    salgado18 Full member

    Messages:
    11
    From:
    Belo Horizonte, Brazil
    Car:
    Beetle 68 1.3 :P
    Here's the simulation I did on Dyno2003:

    - Bore and Stroke stock (could be changed, but I didn't)
    - Full 4 valve porting, 40.6mm intake, 33.0 exaust
    - Compression ratio 14.5:1
    - 500 cfm induction flow
    - Ethanol (plenty here in Brazil)
    - Large-Tube headers exaust, with muffler
    - Custom camshaft, 288° intake, 286° exaust, 15.45mm lift, 5° advance

    With the camshaft supplied, it would reach around 200 bhp, with this custom camshaft it reached 207 bhp @ 8500 rpm.

    Here's the power curve, torque below 3000 is miscalculated, so I consider it do descent linearly.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: 26 November 2008
  7. obi_waynne

    obi_waynne Administrator Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    41,284
    From:
    Deal, Kent UK
    Car:
    A3 1.4 TFSI 150 COD
    You'll need 10 posts to post up an image.;)

    Ethanol is quite hard to buy over here so I guess if it is readily available you'd be daft not to do it. Will the valves cope with Ethanol?

    That induction flow is massive is that right? Will you be able to get that on the 1.6 block?

    The next thing to worry about is the gearbox will not cope with this power level?
     
  8. salgado18

    salgado18 Full member

    Messages:
    11
    From:
    Belo Horizonte, Brazil
    Car:
    Beetle 68 1.3 :P
    :( Guess I'll have to wait then...

    Reposting, my previous post was deleted for the image:

    - Bore and Stroke stock (could enlarge but didn't)
    - Full 4 valve porting, 40.6mm intake, 33.0mm exaust
    - Compression ratio 14.5:1
    - 500 cfm induction flow, on ethanol (plenty in my country)
    - Large-tube headers exaust with mufflers
    - Custom camshaft, 288° intake / 286° exaust, 15.5mm lift, 5° advance

    Will post image of power curve in the future, but figures are:
    207 bhp @ 8500 rpm
    167 lb.ft @ 5000 rpm (226 N.m)


    Ethanol is readily available since the early 80's :) in fact, every serious engine tunning here involves ethanol conversion (have you heard of flex-fuel engines? any amount of petrol and/or ethanol? invented and mass produced here :D )

    300 cfm gives me 200 bhp, 200 cfm gives me 191 bhp. I think it would be possible by changing the air intake substantialy, considering the valves would not be a problem.

    Which is what worries me, I got the original figures of the engine with 29.5 / 24.6 mm valves, would it be possible to reach 40mm on this header?

    If the gearbox proves too weak, I'll... think of something :toung:
     
  9. obi_waynne

    obi_waynne Administrator Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    41,284
    From:
    Deal, Kent UK
    Car:
    A3 1.4 TFSI 150 COD
    It's ok the post was in the moderation queue so i've authorised it for you;)

    You're expecting a 10mm gap around the valves which I really don't think you will get. Although I've never closely inspected a 1.6 head.

    Will you be able to fit a head from say the 1.8? It depends if they share the same block or not. You might get bigger valves if you rebore as you will have a little more space on the outer edge to work with.
     
    Last edited: 26 November 2008
  10. salgado18

    salgado18 Full member

    Messages:
    11
    From:
    Belo Horizonte, Brazil
    Car:
    Beetle 68 1.3 :P
    Oh! And just by using a tunnel-ram (those huge, stupid things coming out of some tuned muscle cars) I get 292bhp @ 9000 :blink:

    Thanks waynne!
     
    Last edited: 26 November 2008
  11. obi_waynne

    obi_waynne Administrator Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    41,284
    From:
    Deal, Kent UK
    Car:
    A3 1.4 TFSI 150 COD
    Alternatively add a Supercharger - c£3k and you are there with plenty of torque though the rev range without rebuilding the whole engine.
     
  12. salgado18

    salgado18 Full member

    Messages:
    11
    From:
    Belo Horizonte, Brazil
    Car:
    Beetle 68 1.3 :P
    I would add a turbocharger if I would, it's cheaper here and should get me up to 240bhp within reason... I was actually wondering what would it take to get such an engine up to 200 bhp under atmospheric tuning.
    The 92 Civic VTi reaches 190 bhp by changing fuel mapping and going ethanol it delivers 190bhp easily... It should be achievable on other 1.6 16V engines, ignoring low-end torque as only the Civic would have variable valve timing.

    By taking the valves down to 35.5/30.5 mm and 400cfm I get 197bhp. Should be more reasonable now...


    What is intriguing me is this: the program has some options of intake manifolds, all of those where using Sequential Fire Injection, which I think would be the closest. But by changing to dual-plane manifold (supposedly carburetor) it goes up to 218bhp @ 8000rpm. So I think that using one of these would make these numbers far more reasonable... if possible?
     
  13. obi_waynne

    obi_waynne Administrator Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    41,284
    From:
    Deal, Kent UK
    Car:
    A3 1.4 TFSI 150 COD
    Don't just look at the peak power. Carbs are generally only running at peak efficiency through a narrow part of the rev range.

    The cost is what you need to look at overall. You also want more than anything a nice flat torque band across 2/3 of the rev range.
     
  14. jarrus

    jarrus Pro Tuner

    Messages:
    3,501
    From:
    West Midlands, UK
    Car:
    Suzuki Swift Sport
    You can't rebore the 1.6 16v for a start.... the TU block walls are too thin and was originally designed for jsut the 1.4 so any bigger than the 1.6 is not recommend

    It can be done but it's going to be a pain in the ass to do but using ethanol which is available in brazil is a very good place to start...ethanol runs colder so make more power but you have to inject more so fuel consumtion is very high...plus the octan rating of it is very high so you can use it with stupidly high compression ratios

    Right on those engines head and cams is the best place to start
    there a loads of stuff that is avaliable for that engine off the shelf just look into the citoren saxo vts/Peugeot 106 GTI stuff because they both use the same engine as the one you've got and there are no end of people that tune them up so theres bound to be someone to point you in the right direction...

    another thing you are goint ot need to do is get a set of Thottle bodies...(1 per cyclinder)
    big gains can be seen from those but the cost is huge....
    and stick with injection....more power for more of the time...

    as for driveablity well be the looks of things your going to need some pritty wild cam shafts so i think any power below about 3000 rpm will nill...

    250 hp with a supercharger on that engine is possible....it's been done many times before....

    will you be doing the work yourself?
    and what have you considered for braking and suspension cause I have a few ideas for that as well..
     
    Last edited: 1 January 2009
    obi_waynne likes this.
  15. Skelo

    Skelo Tuner

    Messages:
    94
    From:
    Peterborough
    Car:
    Modded Rover 25 tdi
    You've set yourself heck of a target, i wish you the best of luck with the project.

    I hope you have very deep pockets, i think you are going to need them!!

    (tongue firmly in cheek here) You could always try one of those resistors of power, that are always sold on ebay. There good for 50bhp easily!!! :p

    Let us know on the progress, i'll look forward to it:D

    Cheers
    Dave
     
  16. stamford

    stamford Pro Tuner

    Messages:
    3,800
    From:
    Hampshire
    Car:
    MG ZS200
    Can't you use the 2.0 litre block as used by the BTCC Peugeot Coupe? They must have reached a tad under 300bhp nasp. However we are talking a race spec engine but is do-able if you only want 200bhp as a benchmark. At least with the 2.0 version you'll have scope for expansion if need be.
     
  17. salgado18

    salgado18 Full member

    Messages:
    11
    From:
    Belo Horizonte, Brazil
    Car:
    Beetle 68 1.3 :P
    No, it's not fun enough. :D

    This would mean I would have to buy one in Britain, then have it sent to Brazil, and then installed by people who don't know what BTCC is. Unless it's the same as the 307 engine, it would cost way too much.
    And it's not as fun as a 200hp 1.6L engine :p


    Yes, something around 14:1 or even 15:1 (it's been done here).

    I've searched about them, and found some info, it seems great. Why is it costly? Four throttle bodies wouldn't be expensive, so the custom manifold would be to blame? Have you seen it done with cold air intake?

    I know, I know, low-end torque will disappear... use a supercharger, it's cheaper and more efficient... To be honest, I like NA cars, high-revving monsters, I would take a 92 Civic VTi over any 200hp turbocharged car. Super/turbochargers are great, but not fun enough. And about the torque, when it reaches 5000 it's easy to forget low-end power :D Besides, the car is rather light, and with some weight reduction and carefull engine tuning, it should be drivable... enough :)


    About brakes, I was thinking the 307 ones. But suspension is a mistery, what can I do to the rear suspension(less)?

    Oh, and thanks for the replies!
     
  18. jarrus

    jarrus Pro Tuner

    Messages:
    3,501
    From:
    West Midlands, UK
    Car:
    Suzuki Swift Sport
    I was going to suggest that using 406 coupe brakes if you want that kind of power.... some of the 406 coupe used brembo calipers not sure weather you can get them in brazil though...all depends what you have to hand....
    A set that work for the smaller pugs/citorens (106,205,206,306,Saxo) is to use those brembo calipers with discs from a 3.0 citoren xantia the 406 coupe discs don't fit the original hubs so cant be used...you can use 306 gti-6 or 307hdi/206 gti 180 discs but they would make you brakes squeal all the time o as for fitting the calipers they should be drirect fit although you wold probably need longer brake lines....
    307 hdi brakes would also fit...there the same as 206 gti-180 brakes...

    o yeah if you were going to go for the first setup then you will need 16"+ wheels for them to fit properly

    as for suspension a setup i've tried and tested is eibach prokit springs and bilstien sport dampers tends to work best on #!#!#!#!ty uk roads but might not be so good on Brazilian roads I never been there but if they are similar to uk roads then you should be onto a winner there o yeah it's about a 30mm-40mm drop that is but if you want to go more then you need to look at other setups nitron are supposed to be good as well....

    and yeah throttle bodies are expensive here you looking at about £2000 for a good set....

    there expensive partly because of the custom intake manifold like you said but you also need a standalone ecu like an emerald one and there very expensive plus you need someone who knows how to map them..
    plus you need a new injector assembly to make the most out of them and the list gets longer....but if you have got that kind of money then there deffinatly worth going for cause they will sound fantastic especially if you want a high revving engine
     
    Last edited: 7 January 2009
  19. salgado18

    salgado18 Full member

    Messages:
    11
    From:
    Belo Horizonte, Brazil
    Car:
    Beetle 68 1.3 :P
    I was thinking about going 15", but if needed I'll go 16". The 406 coupe exists here, but just barely, might be hard and/or expensive to find it's brakes. And the sports versions of those cars either don't exist or are so rare that it's not an option. But, following the lines, the 406 3.0L brakes could be used, I think, it's got similar power but the 206 is lighter, so these ones should do the job.

    Sorry, but uk roads are not bad. You don't have car's suspension redesigned just to be able to survive. But any sporty suspension is usable here, as long as some care is taken, so don't worry.
    Two questions: is there any other suspension set that reaches the same result, but lowering less? Streets are very irregular here, and craters abound, so lowering too much (4cm is enough to hit some places, especialy garages) is not advisable (some do, but poor them)
    Second: what about the rear suspension? It uses no springs, only shock absorbers, so stiffer shocks are enough?
     
  20. jarrus

    jarrus Pro Tuner

    Messages:
    3,501
    From:
    West Midlands, UK
    Car:
    Suzuki Swift Sport
    Yeah stiffer shocks are enough I would have thought, but if you could find a 206 gti rear beam (not sure you can though) then it would be good all around,

    The rear on small pug use a torsion bar, which twists and acts as your springs,
    Someone might do a thicker bar for it but I haven't found one as of yet

    as for the lowering heights well eibach prokit springs on your car go down to 35mm and if you've done quite a few miles in your car then the chances are that the drop won't be that much so....lowering the back isn't quite as easy as changing some parts and hay presto!, you have to alter the torsion bars 'normal' position and for that you have to take the anti roll bar completely out as well as the torsion bar and then knock the swing arms out then adjust to the height you want then put everything back together, it can be an ass of a job but garages will charge you loads to do it

    Spax is surposed to be good suspension as well, but the reason if suggested the other setup was because it used progressive springs so when you're not leaning on them like when you are driving normally then you aren't going to get you back broken
     
  21. salgado18

    salgado18 Full member

    Messages:
    11
    From:
    Belo Horizonte, Brazil
    Car:
    Beetle 68 1.3 :P
    Thanks, that's very helpfull.
    Does anyone know what is done to the suspension of race\rally 206's? They should have good suspenson tunning, especialy the rally ones (and should be able to cope with our streets). If they use a special rear suspension, then it should be available, I think.

    By the way, a friend of mine has a '93 Civic VTi, and said that his engine can be pushed "easily" to 250hp @ 12k rpm... :amazed: Why can't the pug??? :confused:
     
  22. pgarner

    pgarner TC ModFather Moderator

    Messages:
    16,521
    From:
    Lockerbie, SW Scotland
    Car:
    Octy smoke machine
    because its a cheap french car compared to the civics heart. 12k still seems a little high even for the engine ohh and 250bhp ??? only with a charger added
     
  23. salgado18

    salgado18 Full member

    Messages:
    11
    From:
    Belo Horizonte, Brazil
    Car:
    Beetle 68 1.3 :P
    Good point :p

    Haven't found 12k rpm, but there's plenty of 10k civics around:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhKue9xRTPk

    Anyway, here's an 185 bhp @ 7800 Saxo:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PbACGI9spA&feature=related

    If I can push it a little further, I could reach 200bhp...

    I was wondering the other day, would it be the same, fitting a 4x2 exaust and two oem exaust pipes with mufflers, or fitting one wider low-restriction muffler? If the first option, the car would be quieter, thus better for everyday use.
     

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