RWD vs FWD In the Snow

[Puntopimp]

This is a very insightful article people need to read its so obvious once one reads. Have a Butcher's see what you reckon

http://www.angelfire.com/biz/snwvlly/fwd.html

[turbonutter69]

I can't be bothered with reading it all because when i got here.
(Adhesion of the rear wheels can be modulated, at the same time, by APPLYING BRAKES in the corner! Thus the best cornering style, at speed, involved using right foot on the gas, and left foot on the brake, at the same time. More yaw at the rear is effected by more brake pedal pressure; more claw at the front by applying more throttle.)

I realised it was written by a muppet.
How can touching the brakes help the rear when 60 odd % of braking is to the front wheels.
The guy doesn't know what he's on about.

[Yugguy]

Catch it with a dab of oppo.

[Loz]

That man is depriving a village somewhere of an idiot.

[turbonutter69]

It's a load of rubbish really isn't it.

[T9 man]

Originally Posted by turbonutter69

(Adhesion of the rear wheels can be modulated, at the same time, by APPLYING BRAKES in the corner!)

After a look at the article in question I do have my doubts about some of his suggestions! I have had two Track training days at Silverstone and one of the mantras that got drilled into me by Alf a senior instructor there is that you NEVER brake in a corner.

Thanks for posting it up anyway PP

[turbonutter69]

Even more so in the snow Big T.
Utter rubbish IMHO.

[pgarner]

All it does is make the nose dive. and on snow and ice all its going to do is lock up the wheels.

at least hes had the sense to put a disclaimer at the bottom pretty much saying if your crash because your stupid enough to follow his advise then its your own fault.

going round corners you want to keep the go pedal neutral

[MasterAuron]

Actually with an LSD braking round corners with your left foot can be beneficial in a fwd car.

[pgarner]

Can you explain how ?

but really how many normal cars come with a LSD other than really the top sports models

[Zwaf]

Because as said above over 60% of braking force are on front axle, so if you slightly touch brakes front side will brake first and making the mass of vehicle lean forward above front axle and in that way it can increase grip at front. But, don't do that on public road! First try to brake with your left foot and you will see that is not so easy to regulate the pressure with left foot because you have not develop the feeling for it yet.
Also that can be the way to oversteer if your rear axle loose to much of weight during weight shift after braking. If your front wheels comes near locking your front will slide forward aswell.

Just wanna bring some more concern about ready to go rally driving recipies founded on net.

[T9 man]

Originally Posted by Zwaf

But, don't do that on public road! First try to brake with your left foot and you will see that is not so easy to regulate the pressure with left foot because you have not develop the feeling for it yet.

So true that Zwaf, a few years ago now I let her indoors drive the beast as it was her first ever go in an automatic car. Explained the fundamentels to her and she asked "why can't I use my left foot to brake instead?"
I waited for a quiet stretch on the road and told her to give it a go! Bless her! the car stopped on a sixpence and both our noses was on the windscreen

[Zwaf]

Originally Posted by T9 man

So true that Zwaf, a few years ago now I let her indoors drive the beast as it was her first ever go in an automatic car. Explained the fundamentels to her and she asked "why can't I use my left foot to brake instead?"
I waited for a quiet stretch on the road and told her to give it a go! Bless her! the car stopped on a sixpence and both our noses was on the windscreen

I got a friend who had first time tryout of automatic. Imagine this scenario:
Gearshift in "D" and pedal to the metal, after few seconds of acceleration he forget he is in automatic vehicle and tryed to push the nonegsisting clutch pedal for gear change....It was the brake pedal! He almost felt out of seat, banging against the wheel and loosed control above his cousins BMW...
Nobody was heart, car went undamaged unlike his pride - Pride was pretty much damaged!
I myself never have drive an automatic, but I may do the same stupidity just because of automatic reflexes we all develop during years.

[old-git]

Originally Posted by T9 man

After a look at the article in question I do have my doubts about some of his suggestions! I have had two Track training days at Silverstone and one of the mantras that got drilled into me by Alf a senior instructor there is that you NEVER brake in a corner.

Thanks for posting it up anyway PP

Hmmmm. Have a look at this, taken from 'Speed Secrets' by Ross Bentley:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Bentley

http://www.torquecars.com/forums/att...1&d=1328613345

[Puntopimp]

Wow didn't expect a response like those over night . I mainly put it on as a way for FWD drivers to maybe have a gander I think the very Slight Breaking would be successful in the right place at the right time with the right brakes

[Zwaf]

Originally Posted by old-git

Hmmmm. Have a look at this...

As stated above, braking at some point will increase front tyre pressure against the road due the weight shift and therefore help when front tyres need to make initial turn - decreasing the possibility for "turn in understeer".
After that you should be as neutral as possible during the apex and after that point you can/must give a trotle.
In short, braking in entrance can help aiming front of your car into curve. To much of it and you ended spining out, too little and you will experience understeer. If nothing hapens you havn't bring enough speed with you.
Why you need to maintain "neutral" trottle in mid of the corner?
Well, your tyres got settled amount of grip. If you divide that grip your tyres desperatly need for wining centrifugal force with grip needed for acceleration or braking tyres got not enough grip for cornering.
I hope that explanation is understandable regardles on my clumpsy english. See, I'm driving instruktor and never had english classes.


Edit: Can't find nice video on you tube. It is in car footage and shows hilclimb. It is interesting because brakes of the vehicle constantly "squeels" when braking and you can hear when the driver is aplying the brakes and at whot point he releases it. Also sound of engine gives you insight where is full trottle and where is "neutral" trottle. It matches with that pic you posted.

EDIT2: Driving in snow demands even more tactile managing with all vehicle commands. It is good for learning at low speeds because the weight shifts are like when driving on dry surface, but more pronounced and you can go safely slow and still be able to notice what egsactly hapens when you do what ever you do.
So, in snow could be good enough to just release trottle ang gain same effect as braking on dry surface.

[Hansi]

Speaking from a lot of experience driving in the snow and ice, DO NOT BRAKE while cornering. It may shift the mass forward but the tires won't grip as they do on dry roads. In my experience it only makes the car slide straight forward even if you have started turning. Best technique is slow throttle and easy braking. While cornering you might want to step off the gas pedal but do not brake unless it is very lightly and completely necessary. You should finish braking before turning in.

[HDi fun]

Separating brake/gear/steer is always good regardless of the conditions. Rather than perching the car on the limit of adhesion I adopt the tried and tested much simpler option which is to slow down.

[Zwaf]

Originally Posted by Hansi

Speaking from a lot of experience driving in the snow and ice, DO NOT BRAKE while cornering. It may shift the mass forward but the tires won't grip as they do on dry roads. In my experience it only makes the car slide straight forward even if you have started turning. Best technique is slow throttle and easy braking. While cornering you might want to step off the gas pedal but do not brake unless it is very lightly and completely necessary. You should finish braking before turning in.

Originally Posted by Zwaf

So, in snow could be good enough to just release trottle and gain same effect as braking on dry surface.

:cheers:

Originally Posted by HDi fun

Separating brake/gear/steer is always good regardless of the conditions. Rather than perching the car on the limit of adhesion I adopt the tried and tested much simpler option which is to slow down.

Totally agreed! Much simpler and above all safer!
But, regardles of that you can bet always will be some youngsters who will try and if they try better to know what they are trying.

[davalav]

If in doubt, slow down, in any weather conditions, as HDi mentioned

[davalav]

Originally Posted by Zwaf

I got a friend who had first time tryout of automatic. Imagine this scenario:
Gearshift in "D" and pedal to the metal, after few seconds of acceleration he forget he is in automatic vehicle and tryed to push the nonegsisting clutch pedal for gear change....It was the brake pedal! He almost felt out of seat, banging against the wheel and loosed control above his cousins BMW...
Nobody was heart, car went undamaged unlike his pride - Pride was pretty much damaged!
I myself never have drive an automatic, but I may do the same stupidity just because of automatic reflexes we all develop during years.

My girlfriends mum has a land rover td4 thing, that's an automatic and we went to a car drome place ages ago, and I have to say, automatics are the worst things ever invented! they are so boring, and like your friend shifting becomes second nature