Cornering discussion.

[DaveyL]

The whole country grinds to a halt when it snows too. Heading to 6th form when I was younger with L stickers on with my Dad in the car. Heavy snow and the roads hadn't been gritted so the conditions were really shocking. I was in my parents trusty old Fester (the 1.25 Zetec engine, not zetec body) and going up this hill and sailed by this women in a Beemer. She wasn't getting anywhere cos when she slipped she just floored it. The look on her face was priceless. (Ignoring the fact that FWD are slightly better in the snow than RWD)

As for cornering, I've always done the old Brake, maintain speed in corner then accelerate out. ABS I have never been a fan of. Sure, it can on the whole help you in the wet but generally, if you need to use it, you haven't been paying enough attention to the road or are driving dangerously. I've used it before in my parents old car, but that was when I was going through the "I've passed my test, now I can drive like a ****" stage. Didn't have the experience then. Haven't had to do an "emergency stop" in over 2 years I reckon.

Oh, and in the snow ABS is just frankly dangerous. You need the wheels to lock then it digs down into the snow and stops you. But then i'm not a fan of driving aids.

Dave

[pgarner]

why does the country grind to a halt over half an inch of snow ?. up here we just get on with it and look at Hansi over there ( granted running on 44 inch tyres you aint going to notice much ) . 2 year ago i was driving over 4inch of snow with not much of a problem, other than getting the car out the car park ( fresh snow but had drifted to about 8 inches )

[HDi fun]

Nearly all of it is 'do-able'. I agree that ABS on loose snow can be a bit of a problem, but then, slow down soon enough and it'll be OK. As for braking on bends, yes, you can use sudden and short jabs to adjust the car's attitude but the one thing you can't do is apply all four brakes independently.

Hence the reason for keeping things balanced and neutral from the start.

In an emergency the electronics will certainly do a better job than the driver who's lost control (of course they would, because the driver wouldn't have lost control if his skills were deployed properly).

But relying upon these systems is silly, it's just using up the extra margin of safety on offer.

[DaveyL]

One thing about ABS too, is that it isn't actually the most efficient way of braking. You can outbrake an ABS system by braking just on the limit of slipping, the only thing is, how many drivers can do that in an emergency, most slam on and hope for the best.

As for why we struggle with snow, I have no idea. I have no trouble myself, I guess some ppl have never been taught how to drive.

Dave

[waynne]

Maybe we don't get enough practice in snow. In Sweden pretty much every driver has snow chains and the local authority have massive snow clearing lorries.

I got stuck once in a drift and it was the lorry drivers who lost traction causing the bottlenecks. Most of the car drivers were ok, at least whilst things were moving. There are always a few that drive too quick and then lose control.

I would have thought that a modern ABS could respond to lost grip much more quickly than most drivers, but I do completely agree that ABS is a pain in the Snow.

[HDi fun]

I think you've hit the proverial nail DL.

ABS is not the most effective way of braking, but it does help in the panic stop situations when you slam pedal down hard as possible.

The only problem with non-ABS cars is that your boot can only control the four brakes simultaneously. At least ABS only acts on the wheels with a slip problem.

Also, most ABS cars in the last 10 years or so have the brake force distribution controlled electronically so that it can direct the hydraulic proportionally to all 4 wheels to maximise braking before any one wheel locks out.

Even stranger is that the manufacturers fit an emergency brake assist system to compensate for people who don't brake hard enough and soon enough! Clearly, without ABS this would be dangerous.

I don't like the brake assist, it can over-nanny things when you just dab the pedal swiftly with a view to wiping off only 10-20mph. It goes into emergency mode and applies everything fully. Which is bloody unfair on the driver behind.

Mine seems to prime itself to react if you suddenly let go of the accelerator and immediately apply the brake.

[pgarner]

Originally Posted by HDi fun

Mine seems to prime itself to react if you suddenly let go of the accelerator and immediately apply the brake.

think BMW and merc have stated fitting these as standard. If the ecu notices you come off the throttle in a manner to quick then it primes the brakes

[HDi fun]

MB was the first to introduce such a system and did so in 1996.

[waynne]

The new merc system actually starts braking for your when you lift off quickly. Its a "safety feature" that you adjust your driving style to. Then when you borrow the wifes car and are in a fast stream of traffic you lift off expecting the car to slow down and nothing happens! If you ask me there are too many gadgets around that a good driver does simply not need. (I did a rant on some of these http://www.torquecars.com/news/car-technology.php a while back)

[Prince]

This new technology (although pretty impressive I'll admit) just encourages lazy drivers!

[malc9141]

Re ABS, I'm not sure if this helps, but my daughter who's a "reasonable" driver, through her work, had a day at a BMW test track, with instruction.

She enjoyed it enormously, but one of her points was:

(I could be wrong with some details here, but the message is the same) In a medium speed swerving test with the BMW in use, where the trick was swerving and braking to go S-shape round cones, she obeyed the instructor's instructions (not used her instinct) and was fastest of all (mainly blokes).
She said the instructor said, she let the ABS + anti-skid do the job, whereas more experienced drivers tried to cope but weren't getting so near the limit.
In other words, ABS is less than perfect because it's only working intermittently (as you say), but maybe that's what you want when there's some lock on, to avoid an accident.
Of course, tho' it's less than perfect, it might "average' out better. And my daughter I suspect had a car with the anti-skid braking (ie independent for each wheel).

But the car was cleverer than "most people" (who weren't Drivers - capital D) in that one test.

Malc

PS The BMW I used to have had ABS brakes which I only ever used once. One day, in a drizzle on a down-hill bend, I spun completely 180 degrees on oil, lined up the car going backwards using the mirror, and thought, now for the ABS. I can report, they didn't have much effect going backwards on the wrong side of the road, but it didn't matter, as no-one was coming.
You don't believe me, do you? But it's true!

[Izo Azlion]

Originally Posted by malc9141

Re ABS, I'm not sure if this helps, but my daughter who's a "reasonable" driver, through her work, had a day at a BMW test track, with instruction.

She enjoyed it enormously, but one of her points was:

(I could be wrong with some details here, but the message is the same) In a medium speed swerving test with the BMW in use, where the trick was swerving and braking to go S-shape round cones, she obeyed the instructor's instructions (not used her instinct) and was fastest of all (mainly blokes).
She said the instructor said, she let the ABS + anti-skid do the job, whereas more experienced drivers tried to cope but weren't getting so near the limit.
In other words, ABS is less than perfect because it's only working intermittently (as you say), but maybe that's what you want when there's some lock on, to avoid an accident.
Of course, tho' it's less than perfect, it might "average' out better. And my daughter I suspect had a car with the anti-skid braking (ie independent for each wheel).

But the car was cleverer than "most people" (who weren't Drivers - capital D) in that one test.

Malc

PS The BMW I used to have had ABS brakes which I only ever used once. One day, in a drizzle on a down-hill bend, I spun completely 180 degrees on oil, lined up the car going backwards using the mirror, and thought, now for the ABS. I can report, they didn't have much effect going backwards on the wrong side of the road, but it didn't matter, as no-one was coming.
You don't believe me, do you? But it's true!

Haha, nice. Scary?

My grandad did the same kind of thing down the end of my road - Wound up facing the wrong way on Ice. I've span out 3 times. Twice on two different roundabouts when I got very poor tyres put on the rear of the Civic (but with slightly worn in tyres on the front, so the back was Light and slippy)

And another time down a country road in horrific weather, with horse muck. That time I was plain driving too fast, though.

[HDi fun]

Just about all ABS systems have been wheel by wheel since its introduction. Very rarely, the back wheels were paralleled with a sensor each but only a siamesed actuator between the two. Honda did this with the early 80's Accords. The fronts wheels were still independently braked and modulated.

And Ford had that bloody awful mechanical front wheel only system that was fitted to Escorts in the early 1990's.

ABS, ESP, and all the other safety systems have their place. And that place is not for drivers to go tearing about recklessly.

[sbtUK]

Because I drive at night most of the time (work during the day, and there's a lot less traffic at midnight) and on the country roads, I tend to use all of the road quite a bit. You can see the headlights of a car a mile off and even on blind corners on a road with no street lights when it's dark.

[revans117]

Originally Posted by waynne

When you are out for a fun drive how do you corner? I prefer a trailing throttle and if the road is clearly empty I will move over and take a "racing line" safely using up the full width of the road. Am I alone here?

Does anyone power though corners?

I know that rule 1 is never to brake on a corner but this rule seems obsolete with the arrival of ABS brakes. (Old habits die hard though!)

If i am not going to fast then i will just ease off the throttle than pin it as im going out of the corner or if im goin fast brake befor the corner and pin it going out of the corner