Can you run a car on water? - Page 2

old-git · 29-03-2008, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HDi fun

Is this not a similar approach to supplementing or replacing petrol with LPG?

Can you run compression ingition engines on LPG or CNG?

I like the thought process, Izo - it presumably would also reduce NHS costs. Just imagine what replacing drivers steering wheel airbags with spikes would do? Let the passengers have the normal ones, but fill 'em with pure oxygen to enhance the hydrogen combustion.

Sorry, I'm being silly now.

I read an article in Autospeed ( Aussie online mag) on using LPG with Diesel:

http://autospeed.com/cms/A_110053/article.html

One problem: European law states that you cannot run more than one fuel at a time on the highway. You can switch from one to the other (as in my LPG/Petrol Range Rover), but not together.

One anomaly/error in the legislation is that it classes Nitrous as a fuel!!!!

HDi fun · 29-03-2008, 06:22 PM

I have to say I wasn't aware of legislation against mixed mode fuelling. Somewhere I thought I read that the local council here (Aylesbury Vale) runs refuse vehicles on a mixture of bio and mineral diesel (mixed in same tank) supplemented by compressed natural gas. Someone at county hall is obviously tellng porkies.

Doesn't mixing bio and mineral count as mixed fuels?

What's the RR like on LPG? I drove one of the V8 Jaguars on LPG. This was a shoddy aftermarket effort and it really didn't do the car any favours.

pgarner · 29-03-2008, 11:48 PM

nitrous as another fuel ? i thought it would have been classed as an addictive
i see some insurance companies are starting to allow it for road use ( at a huge cost of course )

i thought mixing 2 fuels together, petrol and nitrous, diesel and biodiesiel would have classed as 1 fuel as they are coming from the 1 tank

old-git · 30-03-2008, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HDi fun

I have to say I wasn't aware of legislation against mixed mode fuelling. Somewhere I thought I read that the local council here (Aylesbury Vale) runs refuse vehicles on a mixture of bio and mineral diesel (mixed in same tank) supplemented by compressed natural gas. Someone at county hall is obviously tellng porkies.

Doesn't mixing bio and mineral count as mixed fuels?

What's the RR like on LPG? I drove one of the V8 Jaguars on LPG. This was a shoddy aftermarket effort and it really didn't do the car any favours.

Bio and mineral diesel are both diesels, so my guess is that they would be treated as the same fuel type.

I have a useful contact in the police who answers questions on highway law. If anyone is interested I will post his contact details. He is very helpful.

Aylesbury could well be doing as you say and not be aware of the European law

Although it is a basic system (simply pumped in just before the plenum chamber, there is no difference in performance. With it costing around 53p/litre it makes the V8 just about affordable

old-git · 30-03-2008, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pgarner

nitrous as another fuel ? i thought it would have been classed as an addictive
i see some insurance companies are starting to allow it for road use ( at a huge cost of course )

i thought mixing 2 fuels together, petrol and nitrous, diesel and biodiesiel would have classed as 1 fuel as they are coming from the 1 tank

Yes, that was my argument, that nitrous is just air on steroids, but that is what is written in the legislation. Shows you how much the law makers know about the stuff

Diesel and biodiesel are both diesel so are probably classed as a single fuel.

Petrol and nitrous are kept in separate tanks, as you no doubt know

It has never been illegal to use nitrous on the highway, it was just difficult to get insurance to cover it!

HDi fun · 30-03-2008, 10:17 AM

I did look at a gas conversion for my Nissan but the cost was horrific even for a 4 cylinder car. They proposed to fit a whole new additional injection system so that it mirrored the cylinder by cylinder way that the petrol system operates in that car.

So I left it.

pgarner · 30-03-2008, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by old-git

Petrol and nitrous are kept in separate tanks, as you no doubt know

could you tell i was a bit tired

yeah when i looked at an LPG conversion for the bora £1821.25 unless you going to do silly millage then its not really worth it

HDi fun · 30-03-2008, 05:39 PM

It was certainly big money, something of that order. I'm interested in the idea of converting a turbocharged car (such as yours). How does that work?

Presumably the gas goes in on the high pressure side.

pgarner · 30-03-2008, 05:56 PM

I have no idea

It was The Greenfuel Company who quoted me said if i was happy with the price to give them a call and theyed book the car into the garage closest to me

Massive · 31-03-2008, 01:08 PM

cant you run a diesel on cooking oil or somthing?

HDi fun · 31-03-2008, 08:49 PM

Some, yes, although you really should do the de-esterification bit with sodium hydroxide etc. Which makes it an intensive and more costly porcess.

I'm not allowed to so so with the 16 valve HDi engine due to the stupidly high injection pressure (about 1300 bar) and that menace of a bloody particle filter (money filter) whose chemical behaviour is incompatible with such fuels.

We have tried the old 1996 Seat D on neat vegetable oil mixed 75:25 with pump diesel (ie. 75% raw cooking oil from Asda) and it works well.

If you're going to do this then you MUST register with HMR&C and pay duty on the fuel you use. It's illegal to do it otherwise.

But I'm working on my potato peeling powered engine. Any volunteers for beta testing?

waynne · 01-04-2008, 06:57 AM

I'll beta test your Potatoe peeling powered engine!

HDi fun · 01-04-2008, 07:11 AM

I'd like to see Gordon and Alastair levy tax on vegetable waste. What are they gonna call it?

waynne · 01-04-2008, 07:29 AM

The PEEL TAX? (Poll tax - get it?)

StevieDB9 · 01-04-2008, 02:19 PM

after studying chemistry for three years now my input would be the same as everyone else here. yes a mixuture of oxygen and hydrogen (HHO gas) would give out a good amount of energy on combustion but as many of you have stated the problem lies with the energy required to electrolyse the water itself into hydrogen ions and hydroxy ions. Although there is something that i dont quite understand- electrolysis of water, as i have stated, gives H+ ions and OH- ions, not hydrogen and not oxygen. im not too sure but my best prediction is that you would need a HUGE amount of energy after the initial electrolysis to remove the hydrogen from the hydroxy ion, though this may be possible if the energy gain of forming H2 and O2 offsets the intial energy required, hmmm, would have to sit down with a pen a piece of paper and a custard cream to work it out. I actually down a bit of work on fuel cells about a year ago. I wish i could find my experimental results and post them up so you could see all the parameters that influence the energy output. however what i can report is that we were working on a relatively large fuel cell that delivered not much power, no where near enough for a car! If Honda spent millions (maybe billions???) developing the FCX then you can be sure that spending £100 quid on a home made system is a con.

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