What's the appeal of diesel?

[HDi fun]

But with diesel you have full torque all the way from 1500rpm to over 4500rpm. You can go from 30-90 in one gear! A peaky petrol unit is not doing all that much until 5000rpm and you're generally into the limiter at around 7000. That means you can only increase speed by 40% before changing up a gear.

Why are all you petrolheads driving naturally aspirated cars anyway? You keep telling me that it's not fair to compare these with turbochaged diesels so why do you keep buying em?

[turbonutter69]

But Hdi it's you that keeps comparing them not us.

[HDi fun]

I know that. And it's you lot that keeps raising the same objection.

But I do compare similarly priced cars.

[WLBjork]

Originally Posted by indiaman

Also it will be worth remembering that Germany's WW2 Junkers JU88 high altitude bomber were fitted with the vertically opposed piston Jumo Diesel engines,German diesels have always been in the forefront of innovation and sound engineering.

I think you'll find that it was the Ju86 bombers that used the Jumo 205/207 Diesel engines.

Ju88s used the Jumo 211, which ran on 87 octane petrol.

Even then it's worth considering that the original Jumo 205s were inadequate to the task, the turbo-charged Jumo 207 being the engine adopted for the high altitude variant.

[bye bye]

Originally Posted by HDi fun

But with diesel you have full torque all the way from 1500rpm to over 4500rpm. You can go from 30-90 in one gear! A peaky petrol unit is not doing all that much until 5000rpm and you're generally into the limiter at around 7000. That means you can only increase speed by 40% before changing up a gear.

Why are all you petrolheads driving naturally aspirated cars anyway? You keep telling me that it's not fair to compare these with turbochaged diesels so why do you keep buying em?

7000 rpm!! i can light my cigarette while waiting it to reach in 4th..nowdays the top selection for most mass producing car co. is diesel..more torque,more economy and no strugle for gear selection,just press the paddle

don't forget the "range"..for a 700 km journey, diesel doing 130 to 150 km/h don't need any stop

BYE BYE

[indiaman]

Originally Posted by WLBjork

I think you'll find that it was the Ju86 bombers that used the Jumo 205/207 Diesel engines.

Ju88s used the Jumo 211, which ran on 87 octane petrol.

Even then it's worth considering that the original Jumo 205s were inadequate to the task, the turbo-charged Jumo 207 being the engine adopted for the high altitude variant.

You are absolutely right,sorry about the goof up, it was the JU86.
The later version -the Jumo 207 B supercharged developed 1000hp (I think used on the JU86K), the JU88 as you rightly pointed out used the Jumo 211A 1200hp petrol engine

[MasterAuron]

Originally Posted by clio197MJB

the whole premice of diesel escapes me....sure the fuel economy is better and the 'mid-range pull' is a little sharper but when all is said and done i defy anyone (given the choice) would rather run a diesel than a petrol. its the pantomime of a petrol engine that excites us, tipping 7500rpm brings a smile, not smashing into the rev-limiter at a pedestrian 5000rpm. dont get me wrong, if i wore a wig and had a penchant for beige then diesel would be a tempting thing indeed however petrol will always have my vote for its sheer fun!!

Legend! At least there are a few of us true petrol-heads left with some sense eh. 535D? I suggest you try driving a UK Supra TT. Seeeeee ya!

[HDi fun]

Originally Posted by MasterAuron

Legend! At least there are a few of us true petrol-heads left with some sense eh. 535D? I suggest you try driving a UK Supra TT. Seeeeee ya!

All time classic the Supra. Did anyone here get to drive one?

[MasterAuron]

I have, my old man's got one Bit of a barge when you're used to driving hot hatches but fast nonetheless.

[Poddy]

i have yet to find a diesel engine that sounds as good as a petrol, though i've also to find a petrol engine that gives as good fuel economy as a diesel even under 'aggressive' driving

[indiaman]

Have read all the posts, a lot of diesel haters,and a lot of drivers who are 100% petrol only. Most equate RPMs above 7000 to be essential for exhilarating performance, this is a gross fallacy. I have a friend here who has a Mercedes W210(1999 model) E 300 Turbo diesel 3 litre, I fitted 2 garrett turbos instead of the original single turbo, and replaced the "fly by wire" fuel inj pump with one taken from the earlier 606 engine with mechanical PES inline injection pump, fitted the pump with some bigger nozzles. This car with no other work done on it, will show a clean pair of heels to any petrol car, and has tremendous acceleration to boot, the point is: You do not have to rev the engine like in a petrol job to get real performance. diesels are here to stay, and it won't be long when they are refined enough to convert the most die hard petrolhead. -my two bits worth-

[turbonutter69]

You don't have to thrash the life of a Petrol Turbo. They have plenty of torque so they don't need to be thrashed.
It's NASP petrols that need to be thrashed to get any performance. But think about it what would you have to do to get a NASP diesel moving anywhere?
Tow it maybe.

[indiaman]

Originally Posted by turbonutter69

You don't have to thrash the life of a Petrol Turbo. They have plenty of torque so they don't need to be thrashed.
It's NASP petrols that need to be thrashed to get any performance. But think about it what would you have to do to get a NASP diesel moving anywhere?
Tow it maybe.

I beg to differ, A good modern normally aspirated petrol engine is no sluggard,why, even a 1950's Jaguar XK engine runs to more than 200 BHP, and the torque at low RPM's is something to be experienced . I still own a Jaguar 3.8 S type 1965 model, and it will pull cleanly from 700 RPM in Top gear right up to its 6000 RPM redline without missing a beat.
And if you imagine that all normally aspirated Diesels are slow, please drive a 1980's Nissan with a 6 cyl RD 28 engine, or a Mercedes E300D, you'll be pleasantly surprised!

[HDi fun]

Atmo diesels are hard work. It all starts off fine at idle speed with instant torque and it goes downhill from there.

[be989]

Just wanted to add my 2 bits. For me the appeal of modern turbo diesel is its "jack of all trades" characteristic when it comes to performance. It might not be able to beat a similarly sized turbo petrol but it can give it a run for it's money so to speak. Plus you have the added benefit of fuel economy which the said turbo petrol car won't be able to give you. For me having good power and good fuel economy in one car is the clincher.

[HDi fun]

Originally Posted by be989

Just wanted to add my 2 bits. For me the appeal of modern turbo diesel is its "jack of all trades" characteristic when it comes to performance. It might not be able to beat a similarly sized turbo petrol but it can give it a run for it's money so to speak. Plus you have the added benefit of fuel economy which the said turbo petrol car won't be able to give you. For me having good power and good fuel economy in one car is the clincher.

To a point. But diesel engines (especially the modern high performance ones) will generally cost more to service and maintain than a similarly quick petrol car. There's still some room for improvement in that department.

[jarrus]

Indeed they do cost a lot to maintain,

But I guess though to a point this is manufactures being over zealous with the servicing schedule, but diesel cars can have long service intervals as well....

for example, my friends golf 2.0tdi has to be serviced every 20,000 miles
that's positively insane, I wouldn't entertain leaving any car that long without a service

[HDi fun]

Originally Posted by jarrus

Indeed they do cost a lot to maintain,

But I guess though to a point this is manufactures being over zealous with the servicing schedule, but diesel cars can have long service intervals as well....

for example, my friends golf 2.0tdi has to be serviced every 20,000 miles
that's positively insane, I wouldn't entertain leaving any car that long without a service

Some go to 30,000 miles. But the point you are missing is that it's not a problem for the first owner because it's all under warranty. It's unlikely to be a problem during that period anyway.

BUT, buy that Golf 4 years old and you're inheriting all the problems that the early life infrequent servicing can bring about.

My point is not about the manufacturer schedules, it's about the true cost of ownership over ten years let's say. That's why I've reverted to petrol for now.

[jarrus]

Indeed,

I have seen plenty of turbo diesels out pull a turbo petrol in the mid range (beat it) and the diesel had less HP,

The thing is though that diesels when wrung out will only achieve slightly better mpg figure than there petrol counter parts, it's only when driving like a normal person you get any real benefit in economy,

for example, I drove from Telford (Trench) to Shrewsbury town centre to pick up a someone as a favour, he put £10 of diesel in my car (was about 10 litres worth then) and I ragged the nuts off my car there and back and used all of it....

which works out at about 19 mpg,

how dire is that? but then again I usually get around 42 mpg and that's a mix of spirited and normal driving, and that would be hard for any turbo petrol to match even when driven carefully

and diesels can be made to sound as good as petrols

[HDi fun]

Hard to know. I used to average about 36mpg in the 406 with a mixture of town and main road. But bear in mind I live in a rural area and don't have to commute at peak times. So, not outstanding really.

Last week I had to take a M'way trip up to Dudley (W. Mids). It's about 80 miles each way.

And in the 528i I managed 38.5mpg on that round trip. Driving sensibly and I set an upper limit of 85mph. So not ridiculously slow either. I can't complain about that at all.

But I could have managed that with ease in a 535d even driving much more firmly.

[nailz306]

my step dad has a fabia vrs diesel! he put a hybrid turbo on it n all the trimmings! got it 220bhp 400 lb/ft last week at the street racing near mine he raced a bmw m3 petrol and a focus rs im not sure on the power of them but he smoked em haha fink im only into diesels because of torque and mpg and there prity much industructable! rekon they both have good points and bad points tho

[HDi fun]

One thing they aren't is indestructible. Old school ones, yes, to a point.

The modern ones still have a lot to prove in term reliability and long term running costs.

Like you, I do also like the outrageous torque on offer.

[jarrus]

Me 3, got to love the mega torque,

[geraint13]

looking forward to my remap after xmas.

[HDi fun]

Originally Posted by clio197MJB

the whole premice of diesel escapes me....sure the fuel economy is better and the 'mid-range pull' is a little sharper but when all is said and done i defy anyone (given the choice) would rather run a diesel than a petrol. its the pantomime of a petrol engine that excites us, tipping 7500rpm brings a smile, not smashing into the rev-limiter at a pedestrian 5000rpm. dont get me wrong, if i wore a wig and had a penchant for beige then diesel would be a tempting thing indeed however petrol will always have my vote for its sheer fun!!

That's a very valid point. But there is also some pantomime to be had for those of us who like the thrill of overburdening the traction control system in third gear in the dry. It is torque, after all, which makes a car accelerate so whether it's delivered at 2000rpm or 6000rpm really doesn't make that much difference.

The 5000rpm rev limit (lower is many cases, alhough a few go pointlessly higher) is not a problem with automatic transmission, which is my preferred means of gear ratio selection anyway. Manual gearboxes are too much for me