What car, or more importantly, what fuel?

[Rodge91]

Hi, I've been driving for a year now, and I like going out driving, but my car just lacks. I've got a 1.2 Mk2 Clio, which I haven't modded in the slightest as I've been waiting until I get a new car.

So with my 1 year no claims in the bag I've started looking around for a new car, originally I was thinking petrol, but since then i've looking into remapping and I'm now thinking diesel. Either way I am looking to make modifications to my car, nothing excessive like nitrous, and i'm not sure which route i'm better going down petrol or diesel.

And then once i've got that sorted I need to find a car that's insurance group 9 or less as anything higher than that gives me an annual premium of over £1500 which isn't friendly. So far on my shortlist I have a Rover 25 2.0 TD (113) and a Seat Ibiza 1.9 TDi FR. At the moment I don't have much intention of spending over £2000 on initial purchase but I could stretch to £2500.

Looking forward to your advice and opinions
Thanks, Danny

[pgarner]

diesel will be best for you mate, to get similer torque figures from a petrol ( ignore power ) your looking at a turboed petrol or at least a V6 which youll struggle to find a decent one under group 9 oreven insure.

what engines in the ibiza ? the 130 engine if very nice but think its might be group 13

[wezzel98765]

Hey mate, you're in EXACTLY the same situation as me!

I have found that I can stretch to group 10 insurance however

Some cars to consider also would be the 1.9 TDI VW Polos and the Golf 1.9 GTi TDI (115ps) (97-04 models)

The seat Leon and Ibiza both have extremely good diesel engines too.

HDI will be able to tell you how good diesels with remapped engines are!

I was quite proud that I have 'narrowed' the list of cars that I am thinking of to these:

Toyota Starlet Turbo
Clio 1.6 16v
Astra 1.8 SRI
Polo 1.9 GT TDI
Corsa 1.8 SRI
Saxo VTR
Seat Ibiza
Seat leon
Golf GTI TDI (97-04)

As you can see, only a small list

[HDi fun]

The diesel option is almost certainly going to get you a far more driveable car. VW diesels, epsecially the four cylinder ones which you're considering, can be a little bit coarse at times. They'll be much sweeter than most small capacity petrol fours with performance as a consideration.

The post '99 VW engines (and include Skoda and Seat in that, although they don't get access to the latest engines for a year or so until VW/Audi have had their share of the market) use the PD injection system. 2004 on and VAG adopted common rail injection for all its diesels.

It appears that the engine of choice is the 1896cc VW PD. These come in favours from 100 bhp right up to 180bhp.

All are tuneable with nothing more than a decent remap. The earlier ones (90 and 110bhp units are not so easy to deal with, but I think they're a lot more refined than the early PD units).

Remapped diesels are a joy to drive. I'm currently using a Peugeot 406 2.2 HDi (which is a 16 valve diesel) and it's been in custom ECU tune since April 2006. How does 194bhp sound? and how about 320+ lbft torque? Mine is a 2001 car (2002 model year, don't ask, PSA was playing about with pre-registered cars for market share at the time). And it's bloody quick.

In the old days the diesel drivers banged on abaout torque and real world driving. But the cars were horrid and slow despite the protests. I hated those kind of diesel cars for those reasons - they were slow and noisy. O so very slow - how things have changed!!

My 406 delivers stonking mid range (30-60 mph, 3rd gear in under 5 seconds), 50-70 in fourth is under three seconds!! And if you really wanna know 0-62mph (with calibrated readings) is easy to do well within eight seconds. If you really work at it (and why bother), you'll get it down to around seven.

WHat none of this tells you is the way it feels to drive. Consider how hard your Clio pushes you into the seat when you take off hell for leather in first gear. I get that kind of shove and more in fourth gear all the way from 40mph to 100mph!!

I can tell you that the Rover TDs are impossible to map, it's open heart surgery and a chip for them.

The VAG PD engines are very good, well tried and tested and they can be made to go very quickly indeed. Do keep up with the oil changes and be fair on it when warming up. No thrashing then. And let it idle for a couple of minutes before pulling the key.

You might well score a very nice Seat Toledo 1.9 TDi for within your budget. many came with full leather, cruise control, climate control, electric seats etc. They're a bargain and well worth far more than the asking price. The only other engine I'd consider in a Toledo is the early 10 valve V5 petrol 2.3 (yes, it is a 5 cylinder unit!) . I love the offbeat howl of the geometrically unbalanced but gorgeously smooth engine. Yet a well set up TDi will flatten it. The other petrols are spineless.

[wezzel98765]

Thanks for your input HDI

As you said, the VW PD engines are very good engines!

The sort of car that I am looking at would be the 02 onwards VW Polo with a 130BHP and 229 lb-ft torque engine to begin with. Stick a remap on the car and you are looking at 185BHP! and 310 lbft torque in a car that weighs 1344 kg! Compare that to HDI's 1410 kg 406 and you are looking at quite a serious 0-60 time in such a cheap to run/insure car

[HDi fun]

I think my is even heavier than 1410kg with the GTX trim and all the (possibly unnecessary) weight that adds, aminly in the form of the heavy DC motors for the electric seats.

A 1344kg Polo with that level of torque and flexibility will be very pleasant indeed.

go for it, find a good 'un and don't forget to bargain in todays market!

Let Celtic tuning or other remap specialist loose on it, make sure your insurance company knows about the tuning and go enjoy some rapid motoring.


the only reservation with the PD engines is that they can be a little bit coarse. But that should NOT put you off buying one.

The PSA 2.2 diesel is exceptionally smooth, even by comparison with BMW's four cylinder diesels. THe problem is that PSA hardly made use of the things - there are so few cars around with the DW12TED4 motor. Peugeot over-priced 'em - that's why I bought mine second user for bargain money when barely 3 years old (car, not me )

You'll very soon get bored of the 0-60 bit and instead marvel at the sheer muscle in 3/4/5 gears. And you'll keep on being entertained by it. The midrange shove is delightful and it's a sensation that you won't replicate without driving a large engined petrol car (4 litres gives a similar 300 lbft plus figure) so it will be effortless.

[wezzel98765]

Quite funny you should say that because I got the quoted figures from Celtic Tuning themselves !

They have a LOT of good feedback from past customers!

Yep, don't forget about letting the insurance know about the remap otherwise they won't be so kind in an accident. Midrange power is something very nice to have, especially when you have an overtaking situation. I am more of a 0-60 driver though because I enjoy driving about in the towns and I don't go on roads with a limit above 50mph that often at all.

For me, I'm after a good 0-60 time and by the sounds of it, the 185bhp and 310 lbft torque in the Polo would create a quite amazing 0-60 time compared to other cars in the same insurance bracket

[HDi fun]

It'll go. The figures I'm quoting are not those of Celtic (despite them being the company that tuned my car).

The bhp and torque figures were measured on a calibrated dyno with the car running on BP Ultimate fuel with an ambient temperature of 4 celcius. It was also using millers diesel sport 4 additive which offers a few more cetane points at that time

The acceleration numbers were taken under road conditions, using GPS to confirm the speedo accuracy subsequently.

All tuners will give an estimate of bhp and torque. Generally they'll meet their claims if they're worthy, as Celtic certainly is.

Some tuners quote the best they've achieved. Others quote a minimum gain for the vehicle in question.

I'm happy with Celtic's work and the fact that the car exceeds their claims is testimony to their honesty.

What you'll also find is that a good custom map will smooth the whole power delivery across the rev range and quite possibly improve you fuel economy as well.

I still think that you'll get bored of 0-60 very quickly. The enormous shove fowards when you apply the throttle in higher gears is much much much more entertaining.

If you don't go on derestricted roads very often, then I reckon the remap will encourage you to do so. Just for the hell of it. Because that immense foward thrust is very addictive. Especially so when the engine's only turning at 1500rpm where your average petrol two litre does very little indeed to get you moving quickly.