Performace Mods

[roryp15]

Hi there, this is my first post and im looking to get some good information . I have recently bought a golf gt tdi ( 115 ) from a mate and I love it to bits. He has replaced basically the whole front of the car: engine, turbo, radiator – the lot. So now im looking to up the performance to around 200 bhp – hopefully. Theres two different routes I might take so would like some advice on whats best.


Route 1


Remap - £399 – done on dyno – will take to around 150 bhp


2nd intercooler - £600– will take to around 155 bhp – I don't know much about this but I asked about a bigger intercooler and I was told it wouldn't take full effect until im doing 95 mph+ so I was recommended one that acts as a smaller intercooler so im using my original one and this smaller one so im running off 2 intercoolers.


Panel Filter - £50 – approx 5 bhp. Wont feel power so much but was told it acts more to give you more throttle response so the power is there the minute you put your foot down.


As you can see this will be around £1000 and will take it to around 200 bhp




Route 2


Remap - £399 – done on dyno – will take to around 150 bhp


Panel Filter - £50 – approx 5 bhp.


Something to do with egr valve - £60 – dont know much about this either but I was told it also help throttle response when the foot is put down and will give about 5 bhp.


De-cat pip - £70 – replaces cat converter and will add around 10 bhp


This will be around £600 but will take me to around 170 bhp so any ideas on how to get an extra 30 bhp?




Ok after that I know you may be thinking bhp on a diesel ? Torque is more important – yeah I know but I seem to work better in bhp than torque for cars. Got a fiqure of around 400 lbs/ft of torque.


You dont need 200 bhp you'll blow your engine – yeah I no but believe it or not im not going to be going round racing ill still be changing gear at around 2000 revs just like normal driving, would just like the extra power there incase I need it

Also as you can see i want to get my car remapped theres a company celtic tuning who " claim" they will take it to 165 bhp and 300 lbs/ft torque - this is not done on dyno or i can get it done at dastek but thats only 150 bhp and 290 lbs/ft torque but is done on the dyno. Dastek is 2 minutes away from my house where celtic tuning is 1.5 hours away and celtic is £60 cheaper ????


So can anyone recommended what route to do or any other mods to do to help me get to around 200 bhp.


Thanks

[HDi fun]

I had my 2.2 HDi done by Celtic - they quoted 305 lbft but I've actually recorded 328 with BP Ultimate diesel.

Celtic's work is superb in my opinion, and they will travel to you as well.

For the extra 30bhp you could try a hybrid turbo which will allow more boost pressure to be applied but you'll need to ensure that the PD system can deliver enough fuel to match the increase in airflow. A hybrid turbo is costly.

That said, you might decide that with a map to 300lbft that you've got more than enough shove anyway once you've driven it. Most people seriously underestimate what big torque feels like.

You'll get the same midrange driving feel in a 300lbft Golf as you'd get in a 4 litre V8 Jaguar petrol car.

[roryp15]

i have a mate who drives a 1.8t focus and he got it done at celtic took it from 115 to 155 then hes added a panel filter and done something to the egr valve and is now sitting around 165 ( not spoke to him since its been on the dyno to get the real fiqures )


Did you get it done at celtic where theyre based ? Im accually in scotland and theres a garage about a hour away which is involved in celtic its the same software it gets sent up the only diffrence is its its not getting done on the rolling road up here.

What is a hybrid turbo ? how much is it roughly?

Any idea on exhast manifolds etc cause im thinking about re-routing my exhast, one pipe coming out the left side of the car, the other coming out the right but i know you can get a fair bit of power just from putting a larger exhast on a doing stuff to the manifold and intake?

Cheers

[pgarner]

hey and welcome.

you could look towards fitting the turbo from the bigger 130/150 engine along with the injctors. theres a MAF from the mercedes benz range that fits it. this gives slightly more power, but only worth doing if your current one is on its way out.

your correct about the intercooler its a waste of time dont understand why your running 2 all thats doing is increaseing the pipe lengh which in turn means more lag. it wont add power unless the maps taking into account of it for the more denser air.

getting over 200 bhp even from the 150 engine is hard enough, the diesels flow pretty well exhaust and intake. the only real issue is the plastic pancake pipe at the bottom of the standard intercooler. getting the 1.8t pipe which is still squissed in the middle helps as it has a higher flow, also cheaper to get a hold off than an aftermarket one.

other options are propane injection - not really suitible for road use. or nitrous in a small amount.

remember that the clutch is only sutible for up to around 300ftlb

[roryp15]

Thanks for your reply

Yea i know im looking for alot of power here but ive gotta have some fun eah?

I think im going to go ahead with the remap in about 2 weeks - £360 and they claim 165 bhp and 300lb/ft torque. This is not done on rolling road so it could just be pub talk and only 155 ? but lets say 165 anyways.

Once ive added a panel filter before remap? around 170 bhp

Im really only looking for an extra 30 bhp, ok its alot but im willing to try.

What about cams? what do they even do ive just heard bigger cams?

Like i sayed the turbo is brand new along with the engine 25k so dont really want to replace a new turbo.

What about the exhast what can i do? anything to get some more power?

How much is a hybrid turbo ?

Also im trying to stay away from things that can be easily seen from insurance companies

cheers guys, thanks for the help

[pgarner]

ALLWAYS TELL THE INSURANCE COMPANY EVERYTHING
even the remap, your insurance is viod otherwise and if your, lets hope it never happens, at fault for a serious icident then you could end up with a lot of big fines and legal cost to cover yourself.

the 115bhp turbo isnt as big as the 130/150 turbos so cant give as much power with out going overspeed. even the bigger turbos need to be hybridised (is that a word ?) to go over the 200 bhp mark.
not even sure if there is cams avalible for the diesel engine. the cams themselves control the opening / closing and the duration and lift of the valves.

serious doubt that th panel filter will even add 5 bhp due to the high flowing intake thats already on the car. again exhaust is pretty free flowing as well.

and if you wanted fun then you would have bout the turboed petrol.

[HDi fun]

200bhp is a big number. I managed 192 from mine (again, BP Ultimate and a cold day on the dyno) but it's the torque that really makes it go. You could drop the BHP to 160 by rolling off the fuelling above 3500rpm but still retain the same midrange clout. For example I can cover 30-60mph in 3rd gear in just 4 seconds. That's rapid by anyone's standards.

There is some talk of a Golf 1.9 PD 150 that's claimed to be approaching 300bhp but I have yet to see any evidence. Apparently though the mods are extensive and the costs approximate to the price of the car over again.

PG is a good bloke to know, especially when it comes to VAG cars - his information is reliable and accurate.

You might also want to fit a supplementary oil cooler (if there isn't one as standard) as increase boost pressures create LOTS of heat.

[pgarner]

the highest ive heard was 260 but that had
custom hybrid turbo
larger injectors
full exhaust no cat or DPF.
cold air intake
constant propane injection on top of the diesel
nitrous for an extra blast.
water meth injection - lowered the intake temps and allowed higher boost
and a load of other engine work.

smoked like hell to begin with as no DPF and over fueling low down until the turbo got up to boost.

but yeah HDis right the costs were rather high

think he ended up returing most of it to standard to sell as noone was will to give him a decent price for it.

[HDi fun]

I suppose if you really do want 300bhp then it has to be a BMW 535d or the Jag XF Diesel S.

Or buy a 540i - you'll pay at the pumps but the cars are dirt cheap

[roryp15]

Thanks for all the replys guys, its been a massive help and by far the best forum

Anyways yes i understand about the insurance being void but i have heard both sides. One guy who had an accident on his seriously modified cossy the assesor came out looked at the damage then signed it off no questions asked. My mate sayed if it was a car with a body kit, tinted windows, big muffler etc then mibye there would be some investigation. I will tell the insurance about any noticible mods exhast etc.

Anyways yeah i know the 200 mark will be hard but im going to try and go for it with out changing the whole engine after all the engine has only done 25k.

HDi fun - what car is it you have again? i wouldnt mind that as mine doesnt start pikin up speed till about 25-30 mph anyways.

So what where would i be standing - remap 165 + panel filter ( any ideas best one for performace? ) - something to the EGR valve block it off maybe? and the exhast with a de cat pipe? any ideas on where ill be sitting roughly? and any more mods to get tat extra bhp?

cheers guys your helping me alot

[HDi fun]

Mine is a Pug 406 GTX 2.2 HDi.

It's a 16 valve unit, unusual for a 4 cylinder diesel.

It was remapped by Celtic in April 2006 (70,000 miles ago).

All diesels can be a little lethargic below about 1500rpm, remapped or otherwise, but the map does introduce more fuel approaching the point where the turbo(s) start to play basll, thus reducing that 'lazy' feel at low revs. The downside of this is that it will create a little smoke if you floor it at ridiculously low revs.

The answer is 'Don't'. I find changing up so that in the next higher gear you hit 1800-2000rpm the boost is ready to deliver.

I have tried some 0-62mph runs and it's easy to get it under 8 seconds - I have a friend with a very savage right foot and she managed 6.9!!! Brutal though. (She's just qualified as a DSA approved instructor, incidentally !!!!)

The midrange really has to be driven to be believed. In stock tune the car was 136bhp and 235lbft and it did pretty well with that. Remapped it can send itself up the road in third with the tyres squealing in the dry. That's all down to torque.

Drop in panel filters don't do much for diesels - my car's completely std apart from the ECu control data. Diesel engines breathe pretty freely as there is no throttle as such.

A remap will really set your PD 115 Golf alight. There's no other single mod that will give such a massive gain in driveability.

If you insist upon other changes as well then do them before you get the ECU mapped so that the tuner can maximise these as well.

Ther performance I get from mine is strong enough that you'd need a good 3 litre plus petrol car, driven with vigorous intent, to maintain pace with it.

[roryp15]

sounds a nice ride .

Well thanks to you guys I have a rough idea on what I want to do.


Full exhast system including de-cat pipe ( are these noisey on diesels?? )

Panel filter

There's something to do with the EGR valve not sure what though haha!

Remap

Will this be close to the 200 bhp mark? I've been told the exhast can add a fair bit and the remap will take it too 165 alone.

So would anyone not reccomend anymore mods after this?

Thanks

[HDi fun]

The remap will give you the greatest rewards without question.

If you're in the UK then you can quite legally remove or bypass the catalytic converter.

Diesels have open ended 2 way cats (rather than the closed loop lambda controlled ones that petrol cars generally require to comply with emissions regs) and if your car passes the MoT idle and free run acceleration test without one then you can drive without one. The VoSA roadside emissions test bunch say otherwise.

They're wrong - if your car has a valid MoT certificate and you maintain it (your car) suitably then they have no case to present, never mind one which they can demand that you answer in court. Statutory defence will suffice without you ever attending court.

Be cautious though - if your diesel car is designed to meet Euro IV or V emissions standards then you will have to retain the cat as it's generally part of the DPF system and the DPF cannot work without the cat in place.

In my opinion, the EGR is of no consequence. If the car is driven purposefully then the EGR will work and do it's job without intervention by you, and also without need for repair or other attention.

I'd leave the EGR in place and leave well alone. These generally only clog up when the car is driven by someone who only covers 1000 miles a year and most of that in short journeys.

Drop in replacement panel filters aren't worth much torque at all. Why not just replace the paper thing every 6000 miles or so for a cost of 10-12 quid apiece and remove the risk of oil fouling the MAF?

[roryp15]

I knew the panel filter doesn't add that much bhp but I though if I do that change first then with the remap should benifit it a bit more.

Think I'll change the exhast - reroute aswell so one
Pipe comes out at the left side and the other at the right only thing is i'm not wanting a big muffler and sounds like the exhast us going to blow up. I heard that an exhast can add about 10-15 bhp then I'll shove a de-cat aswell.

[pgarner]

no way will a cat back exhaust give you 10 bhp, maybe 5, the diesels flow extremly well as standard. a full exhaust may give you the 15 but this is including the downpipe and manifold.

you need to find what the max boost the turbo can run without going to overspeed and blowing its self up. this is going to be your biggest issue and would doubt that it would allow you much more than 170.



Insurane companies vary. your mate got off lucky ive heard of another who rolled his car insurance company cam out and assessed it. worked out how much it was worth then took into account everything he hadnt told them about. ended up that he should have owed them money but they wrote it off. if they really want to be picky than can pick you up for pedal sets, gear knob or if they really want even stuff like metal tax discs.

[HDi fun]

I, too, think that 170 is about it. Diesel's don't have throttles as such so you're not going to gain much with fancy pipework etc.

Just get it remapped and drop in a panel filter. The ECU will deal with the miniscule (if any) increase in airflow as there's a MAF sensor anyway.

[roryp15]

Thanks for the replys guys, you've helped ms alot!.

So 170 is that after a remap to 150 or the 165 from Celtic? I'm thinking about the turbo from the 130 or 150? How much would this cost? Or what about a hybrid turbo or whatever it's called? What does this do and how muchvare they?

I thought you got more than 5-10 from the exhast? So what you think then bigger turbo or hybrid?

Cheers guys

[pgarner]

no the 170 was to what the 115 turbo is possibly capible of before blowing itself to bits.


as for the turbo go for both, get the turbo off the 130/150 models and get it rebuilt with ball bearings in the bearing rather than the basic metal on metal thats in them in standard. make sure its fully balanced then fit it and get t mapped in. the hybridsed version will allow you more boost.

and never read the manufactures gains on the parts its all to easy to fake these readings. induction kits are the worst original filter may have done 50k miles. reading taken with the bonnet shut, kits fitted run again with the bonnet open or even off. have heard of rumors of cheapo kits even putting a block of ice on the intake manifold.

if you want to hit 200bhp easy theres 2 much quicker and proberly cheaper options.
1) sell the 115 and by a 150 PD unit - remap it and your looking at 190 from a standard map, go for an argessive map and your looking at 200.
2) sell the 115 and by a 1.8t on the early 150 engines remap alone 190, later 180 engnes 210bhp.

[roryp15]

To be honest guys I love everything about it and don't want to sell it.

So should I do the panel filter, exhast, de cat pipe and bigger turbo BEFORE? The remap?

Also any idea on where I will get a 130/150 turbo? As I have looked just for a "bigger turbo" and it's easily over 1k.

Also will I then need a bigger intercooler with the turbo?

Cheers guys

[pgarner]

yes do everything before the remap and make sure you get custom map done.
yup look in the scrappys / ebay. as its going to be rebuilt anyway.

whats the problem with selling, youd be buying another golf anyway - its already going to have a better engine - theres more than just the turbo thats different between the 115 and the 150 engines, suspension, brakes and i think the roll bars are diferent as well. and will proberly work out cheaper. anything youve bought for the 115 can be swapped over.

big turbo upgrade for my car is around the £3.5k by the time youve had the turbo, flanges, gaskets, intake and ehaust, maf, bigger intercooler and map.

give me a couple of hours and ill see if the intercooler changed between the models i dont think they did as the diesel ones look the same as mine, just different pipes

[pgarner]

intercooler on the 150 engine has the samr part number as the 1.8t
130 has its own, same part number but different letter at the end
and the 90-115 there was 2 different part numbers which im guessing here as i cant be botherd looking through all the engine codes.
1 would be for th non PD engines 90 and 100
1 would be for the PD engines 105 115 bhp varients

[roryp15]

the reason I'm not selling is because there's been thousands of work already done on the car, new engine, turbo radiator everythin and I'll b changing the rest. Also the car doesn't have 1 scratch or bit of rust on it and is in brand new condition. Just many other reasons aswell.

So I'll do the panel filter, exhast and the de cat pipe then the remap which should take me to 165 bhp and 300 lbs/ft torque from standard so where roughly do you think it would be with the others added? 170,175, even a chance of 180? Where do I get turbo rebuilt? Do I just need the turbo nothing else??

Cheers

[pgarner]

Turbo, new intercooler - ether the 1.8t one if you want it stelthy or a small / mid Frontmount ( remember this will cover the radiator ) exhaust manifold, downpipe, try and get the intake manifold and injctors as well.

sorry was looking on ebay and thought id turned up something for 500 shame there was no turbo in it

[pgarner]

if you do fancy changing the engine your looking for the ARL coded ones.
these are the 150 engines like i said earlier there is alot of differences between the higher output and lower output engines

[roryp15]

I'm not looking into changing the engine just make the engine that is in as powerfull as possible without making it too obvious that it's been modified.

I'm goin for panel filter, exhast with de-cat pipe, mibye turbo??? And a remap