Viewing: Is an HDI engine and DCI engine the same?

**aston** · 07-01-2011, 11:35 PM

Is an HDI engine and DCI engine the same? Thank's

***HDi fun*** · 08-01-2011, 12:43 AM

They are the same in terms of fuel delivery. - both use common rail direct injection.

**aston** · 08-01-2011, 12:57 PM

So is a 2.2 Dci engine as reliable and tunable as an hdi? I ask as you got me interested in the 2.2 hdi but I am afraid 2 doors are not too practical right now and of course the fashion tax on a 2 door (406 coupe) offsets the savings on a diesel.

***HDi fun*** · 08-01-2011, 01:32 PM

dCi and HDi are different makers names for the same thing. But the engines are not the same. The 2.2 HDi is a PSA unit, the 2.2 dCi is a Renault unit.

**aston** · 08-01-2011, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HDi fun

dCi and HDi are different makers names for the same thing. But the engines are not the same. The 2.2 HDi is a PSA unit, the 2.2 dCi is a Renault unit.

So is the renault engine as good and as tunable as the PSA or is there a difference

***HDi fun*** · 08-01-2011, 02:55 PM

It's a completely different engine in the same way that a Vauxhall 1.6i 16 valve engine is completely different to a Ford 1.6i 16 valve engine.

dCi and HDi both denote common rail diesel injection. As does BMW's d; Merc's D; Chevrolet's CRD, Vauxhall's CDTi; Honda's iCTDi; Ford's TDCi etc etc.

Renault's 2.2 dCi is it's 2.2 litre common rail diesel and Peugeot's 2.2 HDi is PSA's 2.2 litre common rail diesel.

I'd go for the Peugeot unit, Renault engines have had reliability problems.

**aston** · 08-01-2011, 07:56 PM

Excellent, Should high mileage put one off buying a PSA HDI? I had a good look at a coupe today, Anice looking car and it seems quite large in the back, the shape is not unlike the Audi A5 if you squint a lot

**Jakeymd** · 08-01-2011, 08:05 PM

What other models can we find the 2.2hdi in?

***HDi fun*** · 08-01-2011, 08:12 PM

The DW12TED4 was only used in the Peugeot 406 and 406 Coupe; Peugeot 607; Peugeot 806 and Citroen C5. This was rated at 136bhp. First diesel car with a DPF. It responds well to remapping. Avoid tuning boxes - they play hell with the DPF.

Ford's derivative of this in the Mondeo TDCi (04-07) (and it's not the same as the earlier Peugeot engine) was rated at 155bhp and responds even better to remapping. Second generation DPF system standard.

There is now a 172bhp 2.2 HDi variant available in the 407 amongst other PSA models. This is a twin turbo - the first twin turbo TD 4 cylinder, I think. It, too, responds very well to remapping. DPF standard.

Renault has a 2.0 dCi with 172bhp - I know little about this engine.

Current Mondeo 2.2 TDCi uses the PSA HDi twin turbo 172bhp unit. This would be my choice of four cylinder FWD diesel car at the moment.

**jarrus** · 08-01-2011, 11:38 PM

the 2.0 dci 172 bhp engine was used on the Renault Sport Megane DCi of the older generation Megane, a very good package. Brilliant Renault sport chassis (touchy feely steering subtle suspension and brembo brakes) with a nice torquey economical and responsive diesel engine. Would be a consideration as a second car but prices are still above £11000.

They remap to 221 hp and 326 lbft, very impressive figures to be sure.....

**aston** · 08-01-2011, 11:46 PM

So is the hdi engine the same engine found in Mondeo's? The mondeo diesel engine has an awful reputation for reliability thats why I went for a petrol mondeo. The diesel seemed worth avoiding.
I didn't see a 2.2 ddi 406 saloon , do they exist? Thanks

***HDi fun*** · 09-01-2011, 01:37 PM

I had a 2.2 HDi 406 Saloon. They're very rare. Most people went for the much cheaper and very much inferior 2.0 HDi.

The 406's 2.2 HDi was never used in the Mondeo. Ford's derivative was rated at 155PS. I've not heard of these having reliability problems.

**aston** · 09-01-2011, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HDi fun

I had a 2.2 HDi 406 Saloon. They're very rare. Most people went for the much cheaper and very much inferior 2.0 HDi.

The 406's 2.2 HDi was never used in the Mondeo. Ford's derivative was rated at 155PS. I've not heard of these having reliability problems.

Ford/Jag TDCI
Injector failure, Fuel pump failure, Cam chain jumping, Dual mass flywheel collapse, Wiring faults, ECU problems.

A pretty good engine (ermm!) Well documented the problems with these engines, especially the bearings in the pumps breaking up and shards of metal then ruining everything else. Ford knew of this problem but denied any knowledge until someone leaked a memo. it is somewhere on line, i'll see if I can find it

"The problem is in the diesel pump which has a manufacturing defect. the cams and rollers are case hardened but a number of pumps have a problem whereby the case hardening fractures and contaminates the whole fuel system with small chards of hardened steel."

***HDi fun*** · 09-01-2011, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aston

Ford/Jag TDCI
Injector failure, Fuel pump failure, Cam chain jumping, Dual mass flywheel collapse, Wiring faults, ECU problems.

A pretty good engine (ermm!) Well documented the problems with these engines, especially the bearings in the pumps breaking up and shards of metal then ruining everything else. Ford knew of this problem but denied any knowledge until someone leaked a memo. it is somewhere on line, i'll see if I can find it

I have to be honest and say that I have not looked into this either. Are you sure they're referring to the 2.2 and not the 2.7 V6 unit?

Though I'm not sure of the reliability of that one either - I have not researched it.

I can say that the earlier DW12TED4 in my Peugeot was a superb engine. No problems throughout it's 120,000+ miles with me.

**aston** · 09-01-2011, 09:48 PM

it was all the 4 cyl engines 1.8 to 2,2, yes I was suprised hence the petrol mondeo, I got a 1.8 and on a long run it returns diesel like economy, I want to change the Audi for a diesel and when i read your piece on the 2.2 hdi 180bhp blah blah, I thought "MMMM nICE"

***HDi fun*** · 09-01-2011, 11:01 PM

The 1.8 will return diesel-like economy but a 2.2 derv will mash it in performance terms. When it's working, that is

I'm a bit disappointed to read that the later HDi units are flakey - I found my 01/02 year 2.2 16 valve to be very smooth and quiet as well as reliable despite the ECU remap.

The PSA 2.2 dervs aren't magnificent in eco terms - they were designed to go hard rather be generic cheapos on fuel.

The later 172bhp is perhaps as yet untested in terms of reliability.

Strangely though, I've left diesel aside for now and have adopted a BMW 528i petrol model as a panic purchase. We needed a car in a hurry and BMW's petrol models are well regarded for being bullet proof.

It's not fantastic on fuel but I have seen over 38mpg on a motorway run (keeping under 80mph mind) and it does do nearly 30mpg in general driving. But in performance terms it's no match for the remapped 406 2.2 HDi.

**aston** · 10-01-2011, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HDi fun

The 1.8 will return diesel-like economy but a 2.2 derv will mash it in performance terms. When it's working, that is

I'm a bit disappointed to read that the later HDi units are flakey - I found my 01/02 year 2.2 16 valve to be very smooth and quiet as well as reliable despite the ECU remap.

The PSA 2.2 dervs aren't magnificent in eco terms - they were designed to go hard rather be generic cheapos on fuel.

The later 172bhp is perhaps as yet untested in terms of reliability.

Strangely though, I've left diesel aside for now and have adopted a BMW 528i petrol model as a panic purchase. We needed a car in a hurry and BMW's petrol models are well regarded for being bullet proof.

It's not fantastic on fuel but I have seen over 38mpg on a motorway run (keeping under 80mph mind) and it does do nearly 30mpg in general driving. But in performance terms it's no match for the remapped 406 2.2 HDi.

Unlike the BMW diesel tdi apparently stands for tedious. again well documented problems with these engones

**aston** · 10-01-2011, 10:05 PM

So which 2.2 should I look out for, My mechanic reckons they are a real pain to work on as opposed to the 2ltr hdi, much more complicated and designed without maintenance in mind

**jarrus** · 10-01-2011, 10:43 PM

Our Landrover Discovery 3 has the 2.7 TDV6 which is the same as the 2.7 hdi or TDCI or what ever. It's used in Pugs, Citorens, Jags landrovers and I think even fords.

Ours has had no problems what so ever and the car is 6 years old now (but with only 36k miles on the clock) it's very smooth and grunty enough to haul itself and 2 tonne of caravan plus equipment to over 80 mph while returning over 30 mpg on average.

I would recommend this engine to anyone.

I have always found that PSA have always made smooth and quiet diesel engines and VAG to make power house engines in comparison but because of this they are rough and course.

Out of the 2 I would pick the PSA engine because there are still modification options avalible and he same power can be had out of them.

There are such a wide range to choose from and again all have there plus points but an engine that gets overlooked a lot which has a great balance of everything you could want is the Fiat Multijet 16v 1.9 150/170 found in Fait, Alfa, Saab, Vauxhall cars.

All diesel engines of this generation all have there short comings in fairness.

It seems to be because they are becoming so advanced and complex because of tightning emissons laws from the govenment and the public still demanding higher performance and lower fuel consumption.

***HDi fun*** · 10-01-2011, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aston

So which 2.2 should I look out for, My mechanic reckons they are a real pain to work on as opposed to the 2ltr hdi, much more complicated and designed without maintenance in mind

It's impossible to account for your mechanic's opinion.

If we're considering the PSA units (2.0 HDi 110 and 2.2 HDi 136) exclusively then I cannot see why he thinks there is a problem with the 16 valve units.

They (the 2.2s) are far more sophisticated than the 2.0 HDi's - of that there is no doubt.

But in January 2011 he should be able to deal with diesel technology that was current in 2005. It has been superseded since.

Perhaps he likes good ole' 1989 1.6 petrol Astra's with the Vauxhall family one engine? 1 carb' and mechanical ingition timing????

**jarrus** · 10-01-2011, 11:19 PM

technology moves on, I know I haven't invested my time and research for the HDi engines the fact of the matter is they are here to stay and eventually they will break (not because they are crap it's just inevitable, nothing is perfect) so mechanics need to know how to fix them. Simple.

**aston** · 11-01-2011, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HDi fun

It's impossible to account for your mechanic's opinion.

If we're considering the PSA units (2.0 HDi 110 and 2.2 HDi 136) exclusively then I cannot see why he thinks there is a problem with the 16 valve units.

They (the 2.2s) are far more sophisticated than the 2.0 HDi's - of that there is no doubt.

But in January 2011 he should be able to deal with diesel technology that was current in 2005. It has been superseded since.

Perhaps he likes good ole' 1989 1.6 petrol Astra's with the Vauxhall family one engine? 1 carb' and mechanical ingition timing????

Basically the seriving costs a lot more as it is more labour intensive. He rates the 2ltr hdi highly but had to do a cam belt on a 2.2 and basically everything was in the way including the manifold, he had to remove and lift the head just to do a cam belt wheras on a 2 ltr it is just a belt swap. So his advice to me was that pug and vw make the best diesel engines but with a vag unit you'd have to pay double for the same when buying a used car.

**jarrus** · 11-01-2011, 09:11 PM

yes, but the 2.0ltr needs a cambelt change at 36k miles and the 2.2 every 96k miles.......

seems to me it doesn't need to be as conviniant....

***HDi fun*** · 11-01-2011, 09:25 PM

Some of the VAG PD 4 cylinder units have had cambelt changes downgraded to be every 18,000 miles.

The PD injector setup is driven directly from the (one and only - it's an 8 valve motor) camshaft. This puts huge stress on the belt itself. I have heard of VW dealers charging upwards of £800 for a belt and tensioner change. Ouch!!

PSA's engines use the belt to drive the high pressure pump but it's a constant load device. VW's PDs are not common rail engines and therefore the loading on the belt is constantly changing with every 90% rotation of the camshaft.

The 2.2 HDi is very different to the 2.0 HDi. The refinement is in a different league, as is the power delivery. VAG's 4 cylinder PD diesels are crude and noisy in comparison to either of the aforementioned PSA units.

The belt only drives the intake camshaft in the 2.2 HDi (it's a twin cam 16 valve motor) - there is an internal chain within the cylinder head to drive the exhaust camshaft and this is maintenance free.

**jarrus** · 11-01-2011, 10:27 PM

I wouldn't imagin that the XUD is a constant load pump and it is driven by the single camshaft as well, i've been doing mine on 40k intervals.
Well, I've only needed to do it once so far, at 40k miles now my car has done 74k miles and I don't do no where near the miles I used to do so I guess it will be a while before I need to change it. Chances are the engine will get rebuilt before the cambelt is due a change at which time it will need a new cambelt anyway.