Diesels responsible for 13,000 deaths per year in Belgium.

[medihummer]

For small engines I think diesel makes more sense but if you are talking about cars with real engines I think a diesel just sucks. A 335d is impressively fast but guy that sound!! they should take it off the road for auditive pollution. The sound is horribly. Don't forget that diesels kill about 3000 Belgians alone each year because of dust-long disease. Never seen one dead because of the petrol CO2 emission.

[HDi fun]

Originally Posted by medihummer

For small engines I think diesel makes more sense but if you are talking about cars with real engines I think a diesel just sucks. A 335d is impressively fast but guy that sound!! they should take it off the road for auditive pollution. The sound is horribly. Don't forget that diesels kill about 3000 Belgians alone each year because of dust-long disease. Never seen one dead because of the petrol CO2 emission.

Don't agree with any of that. Diesels can sound pretty muscular to my ears.

Please supply to this forum the raw data from which the claim is made that "diesels kill about 3000 Belgians alone each year".

[medihummer]

HDI Fun

sorry i made a mistake it is not 3000 it is 13000 a year. Text is in dutch sorry for that
http://www.sweetlove.be/br_fijnstof.htm
The first line states the number if you read it slowly you will understand it I think

[medihummer]

Audi diesels can sound almost nice I agree but BMW diesel sound sucks in my opion, I'm sorry

[HDi fun]

Originally Posted by medihummer

Audi diesels can sound almost nice I agree but BMW diesel sound sucks in my opion, I'm sorry

Don't apologise - we're all entitled to our opinions. I don't have a diesel car at the moment anyway, but if I did have one it might well be a straight six BMW one.

They do work well but possibly not the sweetest sounding dervs from the outside.

I still rate PSA's V6 2.7 derv 24 valve unit.

[Yugguy]

Originally Posted by medihummer

HDI Fun

sorry i made a mistake it is not 3000 it is 13000 a year. Text is in dutch sorry for that
http://www.sweetlove.be/br_fijnstof.htm
The first line states the number if you read it slowly you will understand it I think

Sounds like cobblers to me...

http://translate.google.co.uk/transl...r_fijnstof.htm

[medihummer]

what is cobblers?

it was on the belgian television news. I provided the website. Apparently it is based on a european study. They do not say that all those 13000 deaths are due to diesels. They say those deaths are due to small dust particles. They say that transportation is the main cause of those fine dust particles. And they also say that diesel engines are almost completely responsible for it. So in conclusion the study says that diesel engines are by far the most responsible for those 13000 deaths and the morbidity by those particles. In belgium diesel is 0,2 euro cheaper than gas a liter. This is what makes me angry. If you make diesel and gasoline out of raw oil, the gasoline is the cheaper part. As both are produced equally we produce too much gasoline with which we do not know what to do. Modern gasoline is also without any doubt better for humans and environment so I don't see why I have to pay more for it (that is in Belgium any way)

[Yugguy]

What about burning petrol(gasoline) producing far more CO2?

[HDi fun]

Originally Posted by medihummer

what is cobblers?

it was on the belgian television news. I provided the website. Apparently it is based on a european study. They do not say that all those 13000 deaths are due to diesels. They say those deaths are due to small dust particles. They say that transportation is the main cause of those fine dust particles. And they also say that diesel engines are almost completely responsible for it. So in conclusion the study says that diesel engines are by far the most responsible for those 13000 deaths and the morbidity by those particles. In belgium diesel is 0,2 euro cheaper than gas a liter. This is what makes me angry. If you make diesel and gasoline out of raw oil, the gasoline is the cheaper part. As both are produced equally we produce too much gasoline with which we do not know what to do. Modern gasoline is also without any doubt better for humans and environment so I don't see why I have to pay more for it (that is in Belgium any way)

I agree with Yugguy - It sounds like cobblers. Your [Medihummer's] case is totally unsubstantiated. Starting his the statement with is was on 'the belgian television news' does not inspire me with confidence. Do you really trust the media to present anything accurately?

If you want to convince me the come back with a reasoned and justified argument.

Statistics are fine, I'll consider them openly and fairly, so do not be afraid. But please also supply the raw data from with the stats have been compiled. Please also supply the criteria used for selection of data which was included; or conversely, the reasons why data was either not gathered or was subsequently rejected.

Have you heard of DPFs?

[waynne]

I would guess that public transport, ferry and other industrial used of diesel are the main contributers to this type of pollution.

[HDi fun]

Originally Posted by waynne

I would guess that public transport, ferry and other industrial used of diesel are the main contributers to this type of pollution.

That is probably the most significant contribution but we still don't have any actual correlated facts to prove this.

Linking cause and effect is easy in the media. It's called associative journalism and generally the average media 'consumer' doesn't look for proven links.

Just because two sets of facts are reported in the same article does not prove a scientific connection.

[medihummer]

show me numbers of the CO2 issue. and that CO2 is responsible for the global warming. show me those numbers in PDF please.

the website I referred to is from a medical doctor that studied the death certificates that have to be filled in by a doctor on every deceased person in Belgium (same as in UK I suppose) and those are the deaths by "dust induced long deseases" that caused death in more than 13000 cases in Belgium alone in one year. You can question those death certificates but I personally believe they are more reliable than the co2 data we have. The origin of that dust in the lungs is also very difficult to trace and rate scientifically.

Same with CO2. Every human being, every animal and every plant or tree that is in the dark produces CO2. Also many oxidation reactions of which burning fuel is one, produces CO2. The seas are an enormous buffer for CO2 that releases CO2 if global temperature raises. And it seems that concrete would produce a lot of CO2. Does anyone know what amount or what percentage of the total global CO2 production comes from cars and which amount comes from petrol cars and which part from diesel cars?

I have never seen or found those numbers. I have never seen numbers of the natural CO2 production compared to the traffic CO2 production. All the studies I have seen are based on atmospheric CO2 measurements and they "assume" that those are due to human CO2 production. then they start calculating what extra CO2 we produce since the last 150 years. they all say natural CO2 production is difficult, if at all possible, to calculate. woods are shrinking, people and animal production are increasing. So the deduction that human and more specific traffic CO2 production is responsible for the global warming is much less obvious than the dust lung issue in my opinion.

The only scientific data I have on CO2 is the CO2 tax I pay every year in euro's. and that is also the only scientific data the government is interested in.

All i know is that CO2 is a non toxic gas that never killed a man as opposed to small dust particles. Those particles may not kill as much as 13000 Belgians a year but they certainly kill people.

[waynne]

It winds me up that we are paying for CO2 emissions where other types of emission are proven to be much more harmful.

[Yugguy]

Originally Posted by medihummer

show me numbers of the CO2 issue. and that CO2 is responsible for the global warming. show me those numbers in PDF please.

er, you first, you raised the first argument about diesels slaughtering Belgians.

Originally Posted by medihummer

Those particles may not kill as much as 13000 Belgians a year but they certainly kill people.

Again, that's just an assumption. How many of these people smoked, or worked in polluted areas for instance?

[HDi fun]

Originally Posted by medihummer

show me numbers of the CO2 issue. and that CO2 is responsible for the global warming. show me those numbers in PDF please.

the website I referred to is from a medical doctor that studied the death certificates that have to be filled in by a doctor on every deceased person in Belgium (same as in UK I suppose) and those are the deaths by "dust induced long deseases" that caused death in more than 13000 cases in Belgium alone in one year. You can question those death certificates but I personally believe they are more reliable than the co2 data we have. The origin of that dust in the lungs is also very difficult to trace and rate scientifically.

Same with CO2. Every human being, every animal and every plant or tree that is in the dark produces CO2. Also many oxidation reactions of which burning fuel is one, produces CO2. The seas are an enormous buffer for CO2 that releases CO2 if global temperature raises. And it seems that concrete would produce a lot of CO2. Does anyone know what amount or what percentage of the total global CO2 production comes from cars and which amount comes from petrol cars and which part from diesel cars?

I have never seen or found those numbers. I have never seen numbers of the natural CO2 production compared to the traffic CO2 production. All the studies I have seen are based on atmospheric CO2 measurements and they "assume" that those are due to human CO2 production. then they start calculating what extra CO2 we produce since the last 150 years. they all say natural CO2 production is difficult, if at all possible, to calculate. woods are shrinking, people and animal production are increasing. So the deduction that human and more specific traffic CO2 production is responsible for the global warming is much less obvious than the dust lung issue in my opinion.

The only scientific data I have on CO2 is the CO2 tax I pay every year in euro's. and that is also the only scientific data the government is interested in.

All i know is that CO2 is a non toxic gas that never killed a man as opposed to small dust particles. Those particles may not kill as much as 13000 Belgians a year but they certainly kill people.

1. Diesel engines do not emit 'dust'.

2. Trees never emit carbon dioxide, even in darkness.

3. CO2 is very definitely toxic in concentrations over 1%.

Please present some facts, rather than present an absence thereof and then perhaps we'll take your points a little more seriously.

[Loz]

I honestly can't see what the problem is.

[HDi fun]

That's a very good picture.

There are loads of W124 diesels on the road running like that.

Much like the millions upon millions of thirsty and polluting Ferrari and Lamborghini models out there which are wrecking lives and the planet in general.

[Loz]

I wish I could of heard the Merc!

I'd be more concerned with all the petrol,/ diesel generators & two stroke power tools that are used on a daily basis. There are millions of these running everyday & as far as I know are not subject to the same strict emission standards as road vehicles.

[HDi fun]

What I'm hammering at are the idiots who, for example, accuse Mr Clarkson of contributing to global warming by virtue of his passion for high performance cars. Not that I'm a great subscriber to the climate change theories, but that's a different issue.

Ferrari, for example, doesn't manufacture, nor flog, many cars each year. Those which are out there 'in the wild' mostly cover small annual mileages. So the total contribution to annual CO2 emissions is negligible.

Contrast this to the millions of Ka's, Fiestas, Astras, Corsas, Focus' (Foci ??) and so on ad nauseum, which together cover billions of miles each year. Thus chucking out all that very non-toxic CO2 which Mr medihummer seems to have discovered.

[turbonutter69]

Originally Posted by HDi fun

Trees never emit carbon dioxide, even in darkness.

How can tree's emit carbon dioxide when they are suppose to absorb it?
I'm with you this time Hdi.
It just doesn't make sense.
CO2 emissions can't just be blamed on the motor vehicle.

[Yugguy]

Originally Posted by turbonutter69

How can tree's emit carbon dioxide when they are suppose to absorb it?
I'm with you this time Hdi.
It just doesn't make sense.
CO2 emissions can't just be blamed on the motor vehicle.

Farting cows mate, that's what we need to stamp down on. Tax the cows.

[pgarner]

cant tax cows, and you cant take the farmers any more as we all know how hard up they are

[HDi fun]

The farmers would sink were it not for government grants. These grants are funded by taxpayers.

Think about it for a moment. We are taxed and some of that money goes to subsidise farming so we can eat. It's an essential for life.

Going further;- the farmers need grants because the supermarkets won't pay a fair market price to farmers. This is so that the supermarkets' shareholders can have nice big fat dividends. And the shareholders then proceed to invest their divvies in overseas bank accounts to avoid paying tax.

Not very fair, is it?

[Yugguy]

I'm actually thinking I should tax meself. Apparantly the average number of times a human being farts per day is 13. I let rip WAY MORE than that.

[HDi fun]

Originally Posted by Yugguy

I'm actually thinking I should tax meself. Apparantly the average number of times a human being farts per day is 13. I let rip WAY MORE than that.

Change your diet.