Are diesels losing their old boy image

[waynne]

Diesels were thought of as being old mens cars. Is this something that has changed? Did the change happen quickly or has it been a slow evolution?

[HDi fun]

Originally Posted by waynne

Diesels were thought of as being old mens cars. Is this something that has changed? Did the change happen quickly or has it been a slow evolution?

They've lost that image without a doubt. What they've also lost are the traditional virtues of simplicity and economy.

[xavier]

The car makers don't seem to offer sporty Diesels much. I think they are worried that the petrol models would not sell against a similarly specced hot diesel!

[HDi fun]

Originally Posted by xavier

The car makers don't seem to offer sporty Diesels much. I think they are worried that the petrol models would not sell against a similarly specced hot diesel!

That's part of the problem. litre for litre and £ for £ the diesels are outrunning the similar petrol models.

That's why many diesels are in low states of tune from the factory.

It's only recently that BMW has managed to pull off a 3.0 six that performs like its diesel couterparts and that's long before fuel economy is considered.

[waynne]

Alpina recently did a diesel model but in the main I have to agree that the makers seem shy of putting diesel models up against their petrol sports models. An S3 with a tuned 2.5 Tdi would be a monster (if done right) - somehow I can't see it happening.

[turbonutter69]

I thought there was quite alot of sporty diesels popping up out of the factories. Vauxhall have done some sporty diesels, so have VW also. Ford and Audi also have some sporty diesels. Ok so there not top end manufacturers but they do produce sporty diesels.

[waynne]

Quick diesels but not necessarily "sport models" in bright livery with all the bells and whistles of a hot hatch.

The diesels will still not get a VXR RS or ST badge though and I doubt they have recaros and other sports equipment.

That said I do think things are changing.

Lets put up a challenge then and see what's about, which sporty diesel models can you think of? I'll go with the Alpina D3 but it still looks a bit normal!

[turbonutter69]

I saw a new shape scirrocco yesterday and that was diesel but looked very sporty even the interior.

[HDi fun]

I think that the tide is turning in favour of diesel for performance because you can get 1500-4500rpm thrust of a large NATASP petrol engine without the punishing fuel usage. But let's not forget the TFSi motors from VAG, for example. 170bhp from a 1.4 litre petrol is sensational. OK, the torque is adrift of a diesel with similar BHP output but the TFSi can be revved sweetly to the 6500+rpm red line and deliver performance all the way through.

Therefore, the gears can be shorter, which will increase the torque at the road wheels.

You can no longer choose diesel for just for economy, neither can you choose petrol just for performance. Neither excels at either over it's similarly priced couterpart anymore.

The gap is closing fast. Perhaps it's time for a totally new engine technology? That MB diesotto principle is interesting.

As and when I can justify buying another car (business is so slow at the moment that we're managing with one car in the family) I will probably go for a pre 2002 large engined petrol car on account of road tax and the fact that no-one wants anything over 3 litres anymore. That opens up a whole range of BMWs; Jags and Mercs or which there are thousands available up and down the UK for bargain money.

£6000 budget buys a very tidy BMW 535i V8 with a full dealer history.





No motoring is cheap, the govt has seen to that across the board.

[ez64]

Shame Audi did not carry on with there V12 diesel's in the R8 and maybe bringing the V12 config back into the main market and not just rare or super cars.

[waynne]

http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evoc...alpina_d3.html

New Alpina D3 In-line 4-cyl, 1995cc, turbodiesel
Max power: 197bhp @ 4000rpm
Max torque: 302lb ft @ 2000rpm
0 - 60mph: 7.4sec (claimed)
Top Speed: 145mph (claimed)
Price: £26,995

47MPG! This looks like a bargain against the 330 Petrol which it performs similar to!

[WLBjork]

We're getting closer with the sporty diesels though.

Skoda offered the Fabia vRS as a diesel-only model using the 1.9TDI 130PS, and the Octavia vRS has been available with a 2.0TDI for several years now (at least since the 2.0TDI PD 170PS).

The Golf used to offer the 2.0TDI as the GT, now it's GTDI, pushing it to challenge the GTI.

BMW are working on a hybrid diesel, which should exceed the capablilities of the M3 (if I read the headline right, but of course it is a headline about WIP).

[HDi fun]

Originally Posted by WLBjork

We're getting closer with the sporty diesels though.

Skoda offered the Fabia vRS as a diesel-only model using the 1.9TDI 130PS, and the Octavia vRS has been available with a 2.0TDI for several years now (at least since the 2.0TDI PD 170PS).

The Golf used to offer the 2.0TDI as the GT, now it's GTDI, pushing it to challenge the GTI.

BMW are working on a hybrid diesel, which should exceed the capablilities of the M3 (if I read the headline right, but of course it is a headline about WIP).

I think we're at the point that it's down to personal preference now. The only major downside with diesels is that they have a tendency to be a little nose heavy due to engine mass. And I still think that the servicing costs are higher than for a petrol car of equivalent performance.

[turbonutter69]

Have I converted you pal? You seem to be talking sense now.

[HDi fun]

Originally Posted by turbonutter69

Have I converted you pal? You seem to be talking sense now.

I still torn between the two. I still think that for sheer thrust a well tuned diesel engine is as good as it gets unless you want to run 3.5 litre plus cars.

But, I am consider a 535i V8 because they're so elegantly simple in design that the fuel usage over my 406 will not cost me that much. The performance at all sane speeds (say between 10mph and 99.9mph) will be similar.

The 406 was bloody quick, hence the fact I'm considering a large petrol engine (NAT ASP) to replace it. But I reckon I won't be that much worse off, if at all.


Classic front engine RWD layouts are easy to work on. It also means I can revert to automatic transmission. Never really fancied a diesel auto, certainly not a 4 cylinder one.

[SHANNCON]

Hi there. I've just joined and have been reading through most of the comments. Previously I had a MB C320 petrol engine. Performance was "adequate", but, consumption was woeful - unless on a very long trip.
Have purchased a MB C320 CDI with 7Gtronic gearbox. The performance is much better than the petrol and infinitely better for consumption. At the moment (March 2010) petrol is, about, 10% more expensive than diesel, in Australia. The gears have been specially selected for the diesel unit and gearchanges can hardly be felt which makes for a very smooth drive.
I feel that I made the right decision to buy the diesel, mainly for the extra torque, but, also for the current price difference in fuel.
One gripe is that most diesel bowsers are for trucks, in Oz, which means dirty hands and smelly shoes!

[waynne]

You are a trend setter then! Keep the Diesel is great campaign going and I'm sure you'll get more car friendly bowsers installed!

[SHANNCON]

Don't know about a trend setter.
Most companies are going Turbo Diesel, including MB, BMW, Peugeot, Mazda etc.
However, I'm looking forward to getting a "chip", whatever,once my Warranty expires.
We don't have many diesel tuning companies in OZ. the latest quoted me $1495 (920 Pounds) for a unit. Looking at the UK website I can get the same for, around, 400 Pounds.
Does anyone have any comment on Quality, reliability, etc. etc. for these?

All offer "magical" performance increase with "wonderful" fuel economy. (My words!)

What's the reality here? Are diesels "underpowered" by the manufacture , to protect the petrol variations? Can they be increased in power/toque safely?

I was fully convinced by diesels when I hired Vauxhall Vectra(?) and drove from Heathrow to Edinburgh and still had 25% of fuel left. I couldn't have done that in a petrol engine.

Just throwing ideas around.

Any non rude comments?

[waynne]

The only downside really to a reamp is that you need to be fastigious about servicing. You can safely see a power gain of upto around 30% with no loss of reliability. Most diesel remaps will also give better economy unless you drive it with a heavier right foot.

[SHANNCON]

I don't have a problem with that. I will get my car serviced by MB during it's warranty, and, as usual afterwards. I realise that it is more expensive, but, I don't have confidence with other companies servicing technically advance cars.
I suppose I am asking whether performance "chips" can be removed before regular maintenance so that they are not identified.

On another, unrelated matter. Please find another joke! No offence, but, it comes up every time.

[HDi fun]

Don't chip it under any circumstances. A professional remap is much much safer.

MB dealers won't care whether you've mapped the car or not. It's not in their interests to squeal to MB Australia.

[Poddy]

Originally Posted by ez64

Shame Audi did not carry on with there V12 diesel's in the R8 and maybe bringing the V12 config back into the main market and not just rare or super cars.

they now have a v10 producing the same power. if you have a look on the Audi Website for the Q7 V12 you'll see its the same engine as what they used in the R15

Originally Posted by HDi fun

I still think that for sheer thrust a well tuned diesel engine is as good as it gets unless you want to run 3.5 litre plus cars.

I don't think this is true. Personaly i prefer Diesels for there economy but who wouldn't and i won't deny that a turbo petrol is a better performing car over a diesel.

but to put it simply, if i had an everyday car, the engine would be a diesel, for a performance car a petrol.


Something else you'd need to take into account performance wise, if you tuned a 2.0 TDI properly, you could easily reach 200bhp. BUT

tune a 2.0 T properly and youls easily reach 350bhp (Evo 10 - FQ360)

[944]

one think i hate obout disels is sound.They have that ugly sound compared to petrol!!!talking about racing disels take a look at WTCC...tdi leons are owning...BMW is also considering of puting a disel model into the reces....anyway for me disels will never be suitable for sports cars...

[WLBjork]

Originally Posted by Poddy

Something else you'd need to take into account performance wise, if you tuned a 2.0 TDI properly, you could easily reach 200bhp. BUT

tune a 2.0 T properly and youls easily reach 350bhp (Evo 10 - FQ360)

Nope, they'll be about the same.

Firstly, a straight remap will get 211hp out of the current 2.0TDI CRs (as well as the preceeding PDs).

Secondly, Celtic Tuning have uprated one engine (and if I understand right, it's the 1.9TDI PD unit) to 300hp.

Further, if that Evo X FQ360 is similar to the IX-MR400 then it has very heavily upgraded internals and a larger-than-normal turbo-supercharger with titanium fittings.

The key is though, that the diesel has more torque than the petrol - which is mainly what HDi is referring to with his "thrust" comment.

[Poddy]

Originally Posted by WLBjork

Nope, they'll be about the same.

Firstly, a straight remap will get 211hp out of the current 2.0TDI CRs (as well as the preceeding PDs).

Secondly, Celtic Tuning have uprated one engine (and if I understand right, it's the 1.9TDI PD unit) to 300hp.

Further, if that Evo X FQ360 is similar to the IX-MR400 then it has very heavily upgraded internals and a larger-than-normal turbo-supercharger with titanium fittings.

The key is though, that the diesel has more torque than the petrol - which is mainly what HDi is referring to with his "thrust" comment.

If im right here, then there 300bhp from a TDI compared to 360 from the Evo X

not sure if the extra torque would count for much with 60bhp less but thats just my understanding.

i could be wring