Is Diesel 'cheap' muscle?

[Big Ord]

Hi guys,

I dont know if this has been mentioned before but its something i've been wondering.

Has anyone got any thoughts on this?

[Yugguy]

It's relatively cheap to get large power gains. 125 quid on a generic remap got me 40bhp and 62lb ft.

That said, if I was driving a muscle car I'd want a enormous V8 petrol up front.

[Big Ord]

Of course, a big V8 is the dream.

But if your wallet isnt that big but you still enjoy low revs and a lot of torque...... Plus the economy and relative ease of tuning like you say to big power gains is Diesel the next best thing?

[waynne]

For mid range torque and grunt there is not a lot better than a turbo diesel. Now if only petrol engines were so efficient at converting fuel into power!

Maintainance on diesels can be higher and added to this the additional cost of maintaining them and the higher purchase cost I'm not sure they can be regarded as a "cheap" option anymore.

[HDi fun]

Maintenance is definitely higher especially if you're looking at keeping the car for several years. Multiple turbochargers, high pressure CR injection and sophisticated engine electronics all come at a price. The flywheel torque also hammers the rest of the power train.

If you want diesel for the midrange muscle then go for it, - it's a driving feel I personally like but I've gone back to petrol on the grounds of overall running costs.

[lutonmatt]

a diesel cant be a muscle
it has to be a big v8 that drinks fuel

really if you look at it the mustang that every one thinks of a muscle car is not as there engines was not very big most were only a 4-5 ltr

for me it has to be 6ltr+

[HDi fun]

It does need to be big for muscle if it's a naturally aspirated petrol engine.

Diesels do do muscle in spades, look at a Touraeg V10 TDi, for example. The torque is outrageous.

But you still have to wait a few tenths of seconds before the turbochargers get seriously involved.

I'm torn, I can see merits in both fuel and engine types.

But let's not dismiss diesel's high BMEP advantages.

[RobBentley]

I was very tempted by a Touraeg V10 TDi before I bought my RRS. The engine imho is better than my Petrol 4.4 V8. Better mpg, mountains of torque.

[Big Ord]

Definately for twisty roads generally petrols are alot easier and more fun to drive given their wider power bands.
But diesel is definatley king of motorway crusing in my opinion.

I suppose it comes down preference, I personally enjoy the meaty sound of a (newer) diesel and I haven't driven anything like for like that puts the same smile on my face as a the torque from a turbo diesel.

[Yugguy]

it's interesting question. Love my diesel cos once it's above 1400 rpm in any gear it'll pull strongly - it's easy to drive. Drove my inlaws MX5 the other day and it felt really slow in comparison as I had to rev it a lot to get anywhere. Havent driven a petrol for years mind, so it was bound to feel weird.

That said if I am in the same job in 5 years time I'll be getting an S-type R, or XJR, 4.2 V8, as I have a 8 mile commute so no mpg worries and will be 45 so low insurance.

[HDi fun]

It's a very different driving feel. Impossible to say which is superior - it boils down to personal preference.

[jarrus]

I've no idea why they don't have diesel rally cars,
really diesel engines would be more suited to the sport due to the fact wrc cars are low revving a torquey, which is what you need to good out of the corners, plus they could use a longer gearing so they don't have to change gear all the time,

I do believe that diesels can be cheap muscle, and diesels can have a big power band, I have yet to see a car manufacturer make a proper performance diesel,

diesels can make big torque up t0 and over 5k rpm, it the limitations of the enigine that restrict it (small turbo and small valves etc) just look at that monster engine that powers the audi lemans car v12 tdi and that pulls all the way up to 5.6k rpm and still has a massive bottom end,
I still think that manufactures are holding out on us..... because there's the proof, it can be done,

[MasterAuron]

Audi and Pug built performance diesels for Le Mans aye, but in reality they're not really competitive against the petrol cars. You have to realise that the rules are biased heavily towards the diesel cars at the moment.

Might also be worth bearing in mind that the diesel they use is nothing like any diesel you will have ever seen before whereas the petrol cars are limited in their fuel choice to something that is a fair bit closer to what we get at the pumps.

[jarrus]

of course they are biased toward diesel cars in an endurance race,
and i think you'll find that the diesel the audi runs on is available from most shell garages,

I would say diesels are competitive against petrol cars, take the btcc for example, it isn't an endurance race and yet the tdi seats won most of the time

[MasterAuron]

It's nothing to do with it being an endurance race. I'm not going to spoon feed you but it'd be beneficial to look up the rules regarding LMP1 cars before you try and discuss them. I was at the race this year, don't forget.

I was referring to the 908's with the fuel comment, as they were considerably faster than the R15's but considerably less reliable

With regards to sound, the Audis were very quiet and just sort of "buzzed" by, whilst the Pugs sounded crap and everything else sound absolutely awesome

[indiaman]

With the vast technological improvements made on the Diesel engine of today, Diesel is the prime mover of choice, and as HDi fun mentioned "let's not dismiss diesel's high BMEP advantages".

[HDi fun]

If the rules were biased towards diesel then surely everyone would be entering diesel cars.

[jarrus]

Indeed, but it think it comes down to cost, just think how many millions audi and pug have spent to make those diesels, when there old petrol engines have been built on years or petrol technology,

but i suppose if you're racing in a series like that then money is no object, but i do know in the rules that diesels now have to have smaller air intakes and have to carry extra weight

[HDi fun]

Originally Posted by jarrus

Indeed, but it think it comes down to cost, just think how many millions audi and pug have spent to make those diesels, when there old petrol engines have been built on years or petrol technology,

but i suppose if you're racing in a series like that then money is no object, but i do know in the rules that diesels now have to have smaller air intakes and have to carry extra weight

I'm not at all sure exactly what the rules state. I'd make it a free for all to be honest, perhaps just some stipulations on fuel type. Total fuel usage should not be limited. If they can build a very thirsty car that needs 30 fill ups during the race but it's still quick enough to make up lost time then so be it.

MA, any chance you can provide us with a source for this information?

[Yugguy]

If you look at say BMWs latest 535 twin turbo diesel, married to a good auto it's extremely quick yet frugal, immense torque gives you all the lazy muscle you'd want and the excellent auto box gets rid of the issue of narrow powerbands. The advantages of petrol are really narrowing down to just aesthetics - cos basically you can't beat the sound of V8 or V12 petrol.

[jarrus]

to be fair most petrols do sound good, but diesels can be made to sound good, with a properly designed exhaust,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THlqw...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aH7UOFSMaAg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yjle6...eature=related

[HDi fun]

None if this is really breaking news. Diesel power has been re-born during the last ten years.

[jarrus]

Originally Posted by HDi fun

None if this is really breaking news. Diesel power has been re-born during the last ten years.

None what?

I don't get it, do you mean there are no advantages to diesel over petrol and vise versa?

[HDi fun]

Diesel wins the flywheel torque race simply on account of it's high cylinder brake mean effective pressure.

Petrol wins the revs race but then again a well designed diesel turbo will be pulling strongly from under 1500rpm all the way to 4500rpm which means you can treble your speed in any gear without a change.

A revvy petrol might not give it's best until 5000rpm and it's party time over by 7500 so you can only increase speed by 50% in one gear.

It's driver preference now to be honest. I've recently returned to petrol in the form of a 528i E39 with the Steptronic 5spd auto.

Is it as quick as the remapped 2.2 HDi Peugeot?

No, it isn't. But not by a huge margin either.

Had the funds been available I'd have gone for a 530d with the Steptronic 'box, although I'd happily have taken a manual if it were available.

[MasterAuron]

You're doing it again. Comparing turbo diesels to N/A cars. A well designed petrol turbo can pull from low revs all the way through to 6500rpm plus. How many times can you increase your speed there?