Viewing: Shallow mount subs

**Dan2587** · 12-08-2010, 03:51 PM

I was having a search for shallow mount subs and one called armageddon keeps poping up, Has anyone had or heard one of these as they are a nice size so dont take much room but i cant find any reviews and wanted to know how good or bad they are cheers dan.

***HDi fun*** · 12-08-2010, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan2587

I was having a search for shallow mount subs and one called armageddon keeps poping up, Has anyone had or heard one of these as they are a nice size so dont take much room but i cant find any reviews and wanted to know how good or bad they are cheers dan.

Bass is a perennial problem for audio speaker designers. There have been many attempts over the years to reduce the size of an enclosure yet still have it deliver deep and articulate bass.

Most work. To a point. Bass reflex systems certainly do help but the enclosure and it's ports will ultimately have a resonance point.

Transmission line designs can also work well but are not really practical in a car.

Shallow enclosures don't really work in my opinion. You'll get the odd boom and thud but it'll be what I term as 'one note bass'.

One of the simplest things to do is utilise the boot cavity as an enclosure. It's crude but yet large enough that the resonant frequency will be below anything your system can deliver.

Simply mount a 12" or 15" driver in the parcel shelf. You will need to reinforce the shelf but then you have got a speaker in free air with it's front and rear sides effectively isolated.

**jarrus** · 17-08-2010, 06:14 PM

I have to say you are right to a point, but speaker choice is down to a few things,

1) Space, like you said you need to have enough air to move to make a good sound
2) Music Genre, different speakers and different enclosures will all give different sounds so what will work for one style won't necessarily work for another, for example I now have a subwoofer in my car, and it's good but I'm not completely happy with it, it's a fusion 10" driver and ported box with the amp all in one and all though it give great low end it's too boomy because of the ported enclosure, I listen mainly to heavy metal (Metallica, Disturbed, Killswitch Engage, Papa roach etc) so really what I need is a seal enclosure to make the bass sound tighter and more responsive to go with the kick of a bass drum and the fast guitar riffs, (which a 10" sub and a sealed enclosure will give) on the flip side if hip hop is more your thing, which tends to have slower beats and lower, longer bass tones then you want a bigger subwoofer and a ported enclosure to produce those big boomy long tones,

3) Personal choice,
What I just wrote is a guide line which works for most people but of course there will be people who won't like certain tones and amplitudes to intrude when listening to some music, for example I also like muse, specifically there song "Hysteria" which has a really nice bass riff and my set up that I have at the moment completely ruins the sound of it, when he changes the tone of his instrument when the whole band starts to play together after the intro when Matt Belemy plays his seering guitar riff, it's just far too thick and no matter what I do I can't change it,

So.... You need to go to shops and listen to different speakers and choose the one that you like the best and always buy the best you can afford and one that you are happy with,

that's probably all the advise I can give you into that

and kenwood do shallow subs so check them out

**jarrus** · 17-08-2010, 06:16 PM

also using 6x9's in the boot space as well as a sub is a big no no,

they will kill each others sound due to the fact the will be competing for the air in the same space, and one will win over the other effectively making the losing component useless,

***HDi fun*** · 20-08-2010, 01:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jarrus

I have to say you are right to a point, but speaker choice is down to a few things,

1) Space, like you said you need to have enough air to move to make a good sound
2) Music Genre, different speakers and different enclosures will all give different sounds so what will work for one style won't necessarily work for another, for example I now have a subwoofer in my car, and it's good but I'm not completely happy with it, it's a fusion 10" driver and ported box with the amp all in one and all though it give great low end it's too boomy because of the ported enclosure, I listen mainly to heavy metal (Metallica, Disturbed, Killswitch Engage, Papa roach etc) so really what I need is a seal enclosure to make the bass sound tighter and more responsive to go with the kick of a bass drum and the fast guitar riffs, (which a 10" sub and a sealed enclosure will give) on the flip side if hip hop is more your thing, which tends to have slower beats and lower, longer bass tones then you want a bigger subwoofer and a ported enclosure to produce those big boomy long tones,

3) Personal choice,
What I just wrote is a guide line which works for most people but of course there will be people who won't like certain tones and amplitudes to intrude when listening to some music, for example I also like muse, specifically there song "Hysteria" which has a really nice bass riff and my set up that I have at the moment completely ruins the sound of it, when he changes the tone of his instrument when the whole band starts to play together after the intro when Matt Belemy plays his seering guitar riff, it's just far too thick and no matter what I do I can't change it,

So.... You need to go to shops and listen to different speakers and choose the one that you like the best and always buy the best you can afford and one that you are happy with,

that's probably all the advise I can give you into that

and kenwood do shallow subs so check them out

Gong to shops to listen to drive units is not helpful for in car systems.

**jarrus** · 20-08-2010, 01:57 AM

You are right shops don't simulate the interior of a car, however companies who sell these products don't have dozens of cars with different equipments sets so that prospective customers can listen to them. It's far too expensive and far too impractical for them, so they buy a shop and put everything on demo, yes it's far from ideal but it is the only way to assess the equipment you are looking to buy, I buy most things on the Internet and you can't listen to stuff on the net and sounds takes aren't exactly accurate either.

***HDi fun*** · 20-08-2010, 02:06 AM

As you say, there is no easy way around this. There's not even a hard way around it. Listening environment is the biggest factor yet it's the one that cannot be auditioned easily.

Also, enclosures have more to do with the sound of a driver than the driver itself.

But I'd still stay clear of shallow subs. There are some things that simply cannot be done without hundreds of litres of free air.

**turbonutter69** · 20-08-2010, 10:09 AM

Shallow mount subs work very well.

***HDi fun*** · 20-08-2010, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbonutter69

Shallow mount subs work very well.

For what they are but bass is the perennial minefield for loudspeaker designers. If a shallow sub was perfect then surely all house and portable PA systems would use tiny bass bins.

Shallow subs will not have the frequency extension of a standard enclosure. Certainly not at high SPLs.

**turbonutter69** · 20-08-2010, 05:44 PM

You'd be very suprised my friend. Not all are great but there are a few out there that can push some serious power.

***HDi fun*** · 20-08-2010, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbonutter69

You'd be very suprised my friend. Not all are great but there are a few out there that can push some serious power.

Of course it's all very subjective. I basing my thoughts on portable sound reinforcement (stage PA) experience. To be fair though a shallow mount sub only needs to work within the confines of a car, not a whole auditorium.

**jarrus** · 20-08-2010, 07:41 PM

Yes indeed,

I do find that infinity speakers are very good and light weight, plus you don't have to have massive amps to drive them, most of there speakers are 2ohm rather than 4 so you can use a smaller lower power amp to drive them, also they are an off shoot to harman karden so they are made by some of the best in the business, however back to the top I don't think they make shallow mount subs,

where do you plan on mounting them?

***HDi fun*** · 20-08-2010, 07:58 PM

I had a Harman Kardon speaker setup in my 406 and it was superb.

Be slightly cautious with 2 ohm loads, although the power stage can drive them it does effectively double the current load.

The problem with audio signals is that they're not simple AC waveforms at uniform frequency.

Loudspeakers are only linear motors and as such are extremely reactive loads to drive.

It's possible for a speaker/enclosure combination to present negative impedance under certain conditions at certain frequencies. This is seriously demanding of the power amplifiers stages and of the supply rails as well.

Class D and Class T amplifiers (which is what Trisonic brands its Class D devices) were originally intended to drive DC motors with widely varying torque demands across wide ranges of operating speeds. Such technology is now widely available for the home cinema and automotive market. It is, sonically, a compromise, but the human ear is not perfect either and such inadequacies can reasonably be overlooked at very low frequencies.

They are in essence switched mode amplifiers, and an amplifier is only a variable power or current supply anyway. How accurately it tracks the source signal is how it's quality is measured.

Linear mode power amplifiers cannot begin to approach the efficiency of Class D designs.

**Dan2587** · 22-08-2010, 01:04 PM

I was going to just have one up the corner in boot but i decided not to bother as i got offered a brand new 12 inch sub for cheap so got it put it in a not to big box and wedged it in corner just running it in now its 300 wrms atleast ive got some bass back.